--- Log opened Tue Jan 28 00:00:12 2003
--- Day changed Tue Jan 28 2003
00:00 < ringo30> whats a good way to print under linux ?
00:00 < th> using a network postscript printer
00:01 < ringo30> th: what do I install ?
00:02 < th> ringo30: lprng
00:02 < th> or even nothing
00:04 < ringo30> th: cp file /dev/printers/0 you mean ?
00:04 < th> no
00:05 < th> i do not need /dev/printers/
00:05 < th> i do "ftp my_printer"
00:05 < th> or enter the ip in /etc/printcap
00:05 < th> and use lp
00:05 < th> aehm
00:05 < th> lpr
00:05 < ringo30> lprng ?
00:05 < th> yes
00:06 < ringo30> ok I'll install that one, first creating nice redhead bootlogo ...
00:07 < th> but do you have a networked ps-printer?
00:08 < ringo30> hmm old dj500c..
00:08 < th> is it connected through network cable?
00:09 < th> (ethernet!)
00:10 < ringo30> parport ... I bought it for 2euro34
00:10 < th> so it is NOT networked
00:13 < ringo30> nope .. no network.
00:13 < th> so u can't follow my advise "< th> using a network postscript printer" with that device
00:15 < ringo30> lprng worked fine (I rember now) ... A few rock distro's ago, with some fix to make it understand postscipt.
00:17 < ringo30> I sometimes need a pointer to refresh memory, if the mem doesnt get refreshed the condensator will loose its info.
00:18 < ringo30> building kernel.
00:23 < ringo30> rebooting brb
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00:30 < ringo30> bootlogo != fun .... ==> blurred....
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01:29 < ringo30> anyone still up ?
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01:39 < ringo30> hmm now it works .... Nice bootup screen ! Now I can go to sleep ;-)
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04:24 < Satg> Good Night people
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09:15 < blindcoder> moin
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10:37 -!- blindcod1r is now known as blindcoder
10:37 < blindcoder> re
10:44 < kasc> moin
10:44 < blindcoder> moin kasc
10:44 < blindcoder> kasc: regarding the LPP and other patches, please have a look at http://www.crash-override.net/lpp.php
10:48 < kasc> blindcoder: not sure if i even want to try that again. yesterday i nearly got a GAU because of that
10:49 < blindcoder> kasc: oh... okay, then it's maybe better to leave it.
10:50 < kasc> no working kernel, no working sources and no bootdisk
10:50 < blindcoder> *urks*
10:50 < kasc> grub and a kernel deeply hidden in my backup files saved me
10:51 < blindcoder> thats good :)
10:51 * blindcoder usually has an older kernel in his lilo-config "just in case"
10:52 < kasc> i usually do have, too
10:53 < kasc> but since my upgrade to rock-1.7 i forgot to put a backup kernel
10:54 < blindcoder> anyway, good luck that there was one on your backups :)
10:55 < kasc> guess what version it was ;)
10:56 < blindcoder> 2.2.x?
10:56 < kasc> 2.0.11
10:56 < blindcoder> nice :)
10:56 < blindcoder> that's an _old_ backup :)
10:56 < kasc> fortunately i could compile a new one from the rock source tree ;)
10:58 < kasc> think i'd better fix me some rescue system just in case
10:58 < blindcoder> hmm... no ROCK CD lying around?
10:59 < kasc> nope
10:59 < blindcoder> time to burn one :)
10:59 < kasc> why should i buy cd's when i can have everything for free from inet? ;)
11:00 < blindcoder> sure, but I don't have several hendred GBs at my disposal to stare everything I want to have without CD-Rs
11:00 < kasc> what size are those cd images?
11:01 < blindcoder> 680MB usually
11:01 < kasc> too large
11:01 < blindcoder> why?
11:02 < kasc> i only have 74 minutes cd-r's here
11:02 < blindcoder> hmm
11:02 < blindcoder> wan't fit >_<
11:10 < kasc> what about the rescue disk target? does it work, yet?
11:10 < blindcoder> hmm... don't know... is there something like that ?
11:11 < kasc> not sure...
11:11 < kasc> thought i have seen someting like that somewhere
11:33 -!- ringo30_sleep is now known as ringo
11:38 < ringo> kasc: build one you only nee 2 floppies.
11:38 < ringo> s/nee/need
11:39 < kasc> ringo: i'm looking for something more complete...
11:40 < kasc> something with gcc and stuff for going online and something like that ;)
11:41 < ringo> Download iso and mount it temp on hd install it et voila.
11:43 < ringo> ount -t iso9660 -o loop ~/4.6-RC2-install.iso /mnt/iso
11:43 < ringo> s/ount/mount
11:44 < kasc> sounds reasonable :) is there a link to recent isos on rocklinux.org?
11:45 < ringo> http://iso.rocklinux.de
11:46 < kasc> thx
11:46 < ringo> blincoderL: yesterday made my own picture for the bootupscren.
11:50 < blindcoder> ringo: sweet. where can I look at it?
11:51 < ringo> hmmm ... ok .. hmmm ok... will put it on the website... moment.
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11:55 < ringo> http://www.xs4all.nl/~ringo78/redhead.png
11:55 < blindcoder> sw33t
11:56 < ringo> put also redhead.tar.gz (Theme there).
11:58 < blindcoder> got it :)
11:58 < blindcoder> ?lol? my Users won't be happy :)
11:58 < ringo> what files at bootup give output to the screen, its still fsckd up by msgs from kernel.
12:00 < blindcoder> it's the kernel itself. I think about exchanging printk(){...} by printk(){}
12:02 < ringo> create a /dev/console2 ? Maybe also an option.
12:02 < ringo> be
12:02 < blindcoder> in theory it should work with /dev/vc/2
12:03 < blindcoder> ringo: oh, and have a look at: http://www.crash-override.net/lpp.php
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12:09 < blindcoder> ringo: I'd have a 640x350 ROCK logo here (without 'definitions yet')
12:10 < ringo> hmmm nice, can I get it ?
12:13 < ringo> blindcoder: vy diff qwestion whats a good way to real time transform audio, mic--> comp --> output ?
12:14 < blindcoder> puh... never done that before...
12:15 < blindcoder> http://scavenger.homeip.net/~blindcoder/rock_640.tar.gz
12:15 < blindcoder> I wrote the definitions file, I hope it's all correct
12:16 < ringo> ok .... What defintions need to be changed ? apart from picsize ?
12:16 < blindcoder> none should have the need to be changed.
12:17 < blindcoder> I have it adapted like in the README
12:19 < ringo> rebuilding kernel
12:24 < kasc> does anyone of you know how to force a kernel module to a higher debug level?
12:25 < blindcoder> hmm... only if it has a paramater to do so for insmod/modprobe
12:28 < ringo> modinfo -p module will return some paramters
12:30 < kasc> seems being verbose isnt implemented for that module :(
12:31 < ringo> read source ?
12:31 < ringo> blindcoder: Why didnt you remove The #define ++
12:32 < blindcoder> with the new patch on the aforementioned URI it's not necessary anymore
12:32 < blindcoder> I added the necessary #define's into fbprogress.c
12:32 < ringo> ahhh ok
12:35 < blindcoder> ringo: file: driver/video/fbcon.c line 102
12:35 < blindcoder> add these three lines:
12:35 < blindcoder> #define LINUX_LOGO_COLORS 214
12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGO16 1
12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGOBW 1
12:35 < blindcoder> that's all that's needed
12:36 < ringo> ok !
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12:43 * blindcoder off to lunch l8er
12:43 < ringo> bon apetit !
12:51 < kasc> jippie! it works!
12:59 < ringo> /quit/q     /// 12:32 < blindcoder> I added the necessary #define's into fbprogress.c
12:59 < ringo> 12:32 < ringo> ahhh ok
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> ringo: file: driver/video/fbcon.c line 102
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> add these three lines:
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define LINUX_LOGO_COLORS 214
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGO16 1
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> #define INCLUDE_LINUX_LOGOBW 1
12:59 < ringo> 12:35 < blindcoder> that's all that's needed
13:00 < ringo> sri ...
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13:20 < blindcoder> re
13:20 -!- kasc_ [~kasc@p5090A2D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
13:22 < blindcoder> re kasc_
13:22 < blindcoder> kasc_: what works?
13:23 < kasc_> getting my gamepad to work with linux, especially xblast ;)
13:23 < blindcoder> sweet
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13:56 < ringo30> hmm using old keyb ... types whay better compaq-fujitsu 1:0
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14:21 < ringo30> hmm keybord doest reset .... :-(
14:22 < blindcoder> re ringo30
14:22 < blindcoder> does the ROCK-Logo work?
14:23 * snyke has a black compaq here :)
14:23 < snyke> keyboard I mean
14:24 < blindcoder> snyke: you're @bitz
14:25 < snyke> yep
14:25 < snyke> but I've another one at home
14:25 < ringo30> blindcoder; Like a charm only still a lot of info on the screen...
14:26 < blindcoder> ringo30: thanks. I'll have a look if you can redirect those messages somewhere else without killing your init
14:27 -!- kasc_ is now known as kasc
15:00 < ringo30> whats a good whay to use packages in /opt/* put in PATH ? make a link ?
15:00 < blindcoder> they should be
15:01 < blindcoder> from /etc/profile:
15:01 < blindcoder>         for x in /usr/X11/sbin /usr/X11/bin /usr/games /usr/local/games \
15:01 < blindcoder>                  /opt/*/sbin /opt/*/bin $HOME/sbin $HOME/bin
15:01 < blindcoder>         do
15:01 < blindcoder>                 [ -d $x ] && export PATH="$PATH:$x"
15:01 < blindcoder>         done
15:03 < ringo30> ok !
15:07 < ringo30> thanks it doesnt export to path here ... But still get the idea ! I am looking at bootstrap proc now, nice to learn more about it.
15:15 < owl> hi
15:15 < blindcoder> hi owlita
15:16 < owl> hola blindy
15:21 -!- Mike1 [~mike@odin.informatica.co.cr] has joined #rocklinux
15:21 < Mike1> Greetings @ all
15:22 < ringo30> Greetings b-ack
15:22 < owl> hi Mike1
15:24 < Mike1> :)
15:26 -!- capchaos [~capchaos@B5d9a.pppool.de] has joined #RockLinux
15:26 < capchaos> Hi everyone
15:27 < Mike1> capy!
15:27 < capchaos> Mikey!
15:27 < Mike1> :)
15:27 < capchaos> <:
15:27 < blindcoder> hi Mike1
15:27 < capchaos> ¿Como estas?
15:27 < blindcoder> hi capchaos
15:27 < capchaos> Moin blindy
15:28 < Mike1> capchaos: estoy muy bien gracias y tu?
15:28 < Mike1> hi blindy
15:30 < rolla> re
15:30 < blindcoder> re rolla
15:30 < owl> re rolla
15:32 < capchaos> Mike1, bien, no puedo quejarme.
15:53 * blindcoder goeing home. bye
16:01 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E49D6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
16:02 < owl> hi tcr
16:02 < tcr> moin all
16:25 < ringo30> blincoder: cul
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16:48 < Mike1>  == 09:51:28 =[3]=> Building base package gcc [3.2.0 1.6.0pre3].
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17:08 < Satg> Hello people !! :)
17:08 < Mike1> hello satg
17:09 < Satg> Hi Mike, How are you ?
17:09 < Mike1> satg feeling better thx and you ?
17:10 < Satg> Creo que hoy es un mejor dia que ayer
17:10 < Mike1> satg please speak only in english in this channel
17:12 < tcr> hi satg and Mike1
17:12 < Mike1> greetings tcr
17:13 < Satg> Hi tcr, how are you ?
17:13 < tcr> quite busy... trying to track some bugs in bash completion down
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18:18 < kasc> is anyone in here familiar with g++ parameters?
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18:31 < Mike1> arrgg
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18:47 < owl> re Mike1
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18:57 < Mike1> wm blindy
18:57 < Mike1> vb*
18:57 < blindcoder> re
18:59 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E499BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
18:59 < owl> re blindcoder
19:01 * blindcoder knows what CD he'll be buying next :)
19:01 * blindcoder np: Busted - Year 3000
19:02 < tcr> re
19:02 < owl> re tcr
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19:06 * tcr oups. brb
19:06 -!- tcr [~tobrit@pD9E499BA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("Ho chresim eidos uch hoch poll eidos sophos")
19:13 * blindcoder np: Apollo Four Forty - Stop the Rock
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20:03 < Mike1> *yawn*
20:05 < ringo30_> liveradio kaktus.campus.luth.se:8056 anyone know what this is ?
20:05 < blindcoder> hmm... sounds like an internet radio to me :)
20:06 < owl> and looks like one, to mee
20:06 < owl> -e
20:06 -!- tsa [~tsa@pD9525ED9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
20:06 < tsa> hi
20:06 < owl> hi tsa
20:06 < ringo30_> right with geek news every hour ... its cool.
20:06 < blindcoder> sweet
20:09 < tsa> th: awake?
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20:16 < tsa> huebi?
20:17 < Mike1> greetings tsa
20:17 < tsa> hi Mike1
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21:07 < Mike1> 0_o
21:09 * blindcoder going to bed.
21:09 < blindcoder> night
21:10 < Mike1> n8 blindy
21:10 < tsa> hm...someone knows how to show system inventory on sun OBP?
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21:15 < zer0_o> o_0
21:15 < zer0_o> token a shower
21:15 < Mike1> 0_o how are you ?
21:16 < zer0_o> i'm finished
21:16 < owl> gn8 blindcoder
21:16 < zer0_o> hi owl
21:17 < zer0_o> and you mike?
21:17 < owl> hi zer0_o
21:18 < Mike1> zer0_o: finished? i am doing better thanks
21:18 < zer0_o> what happend?
21:19 * Mike1 was at the hospital last week
21:19 < zer0_o> yeah, i had training
21:19 < zer0_o> broken something ?
21:20 < Mike1> no braking involved, just lots of blood and pain
21:21 < zer0_o> do i have to cramble all out of your nose? say what happend =) if it's now better then last week, is all ok. =) lucky you are alive
21:22 < Mike1> zer0_o: yeah thanks
21:22 < Mike1> zer0_o: its a long story, so stick with that :P
21:23 < zer0_o> i'v got the time of the world ..
21:24 * Mike1 realized zer0_o is a very curious person ...
21:24 < zer0_o> what did you think ? i'm a geek, i AM curious!
21:25 < zer0_o> i'm a sozial sinking ship =P
21:26 < Mike1> *g
21:28 < owl> zer0_o == depressed ?
21:29 < zer0_o> not really
21:29 < owl> zer0_o: :P
21:29 < Mike1> owl are you ?
21:29 < zer0_o> i've got the truth in the eyes
21:29 < owl> Mike1: yeah.
21:29 < Mike1> (*)(*)
21:29 < Mike1> oh .. yeah i forgot those are not ur eyes
21:30 < zer0_o> definitly not *g* if i had such "eyes" i would go suicide.. =P
21:31 < Mike1> lol
21:31 < zer0_o> or operate them away
21:31 < owl> <-- to depressed to think or even type much, too. isn't it great? the only thing i'm doing today - after leaving school - is holding a book in my hands and reading. dammit
21:31 < zer0_o> owl.. whats up?
21:31 < owl> zer0_o: nothing special. life.
21:32 < zer0_o> yeah, reallive sucks =P
21:34 < owl> zer0_o: full ack
21:35 < Mike1> owl: would you prefer to have some more ... "action" than just be reading?
21:36 < owl> Mike1: yeah. sleeping :)
21:36 < Mike1> ok lets go to bed
21:36 < owl> Mike1: aaah! no! not with you!
21:38 < Mike1> ah :(
21:38 < Mike1> ok
21:40 * zer0_o agains TCPA ^^
21:40 < tcr> ack
21:42 < tsa> ..without having read anything about it, it seems.
21:42 < tsa> tcpa is good and useful under certan circumstances..
21:43 < tsa> trusted path execution, fo example.
21:43 < tcr> yap, but palladium stinks as hell
21:43 < tsa> tcpa != palladium
21:43 < tcr> and i read TCPA as in ``Microsoft-TCPA''
21:43 < tsa> ;)
21:44 < zer0_o> yeah
21:44 < zer0_o> that's the undergoing of oss
21:45 < tsa> nack, once again. the tpm has to explicitly enabled by the OS.
21:47 < zer0_o> ah
21:47 < tsa> (which MS will most probably do ;)
21:56 < owl> *hrmpf* stupid eumex!
21:56 < owl> re
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21:57 < zer0_o> re
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21:57 -!- thalerim is now known as tcr
21:57 < tcr> hrm
21:59 < zer0_o> tcr..
21:59 < tcr> tsa: you said tcpa could be turned off, which is partly true.. but dont forget about the fact that even in untrusted mode fritz looks if your os is on a revocation list
21:59 < zer0_o> tcr, are you a rock developer?
22:00 < tcr> hrm. actually depends on how you define it
22:00 < zer0_o> i wanted to ask, why there is no port-system in rock .. ( like fbsd or gentoo )
22:02 < tcr> how do you come to the idea that rock hasnt got one?
22:03 < zer0_o> i never saw it =)
22:04 < tcr> pjotr writes in his guide: "It has been stated ROCK Linux is more BSD with a GNU core than anything else: ROCK has a ports collection (called extensions), a make world (called ./scripts/Build-Target) [...]"
22:11 < cchamilt> is this conversation still going on?
22:13 < tcr> hi cchamilt. what convers.?
22:13 < zer0_o> i don't know what to say =|
22:13 < cchamilt> the one about ports.
22:14 < tcr> it's very unusual here that a conversation is entirely over ;)
22:14 < zer0_o> i don't know if my question was answered , i'm not so good in english. =(
22:14 < cchamilt> I think there is a general misconception about ports and how it would work on linux.
22:15 < cchamilt> Ports is port -s of code like gnu packages for BSD.
22:15 < zer0_o> you think there is no good port - concept for linux?
22:16 < cchamilt> Yep.
22:16 < cchamilt> Building from source is great - the magical Ports no.
22:16 < cchamilt> BSD uses cvs for its normal system.
22:17 < cchamilt> I really doubt there is a Port of the linux kernel.
22:17 < zer0_o> let's develop good ports =) everyone will be greatfull to the dev's =)
22:17 < cchamilt> So it is Bullsh-t when people say ports on Linux.
22:17 < zer0_o> yeah, another name would be good ..
22:18 < cchamilt> If we have a whole bunch of unsupported packages (like our old .ext system) them that is as close to ports as we could get.
22:18 < cchamilt> The idea is that Ports is not part of BSD.  It doesn't get released with the main CVS for version 5.x, etc.
22:19 < cchamilt> They are out of the BSD tree and not maintained by main BSD developers.
22:19 < cchamilt> We tried it and it sucked for .exts.
22:20 < zer0_o> ..
22:20 < cchamilt> Not enough good maintainers with time, several overworked, several packages just ignored, etc.
22:20 < cchamilt> We changed ownership in 1.7.  Hopefully for the better.
22:21 < cchamilt> Now all packages are directly under people and included as part of the system.
22:21 < cchamilt> People get yelled at if packages go bad.
22:22 < cchamilt> I can also rant about our competition if you'd like :).
22:22 < cchamilt> Portage is basically shell based (like us and RPM).
22:23 < cchamilt> Many people who want ports want something based on Makefiles (like Debian)
22:23 < cchamilt> Christoph Lambert will be making a source based Debian supposedly.
22:23 < tcr> well, but things like to less time etc is still there
22:23 < zer0_o> yeah .. makefiles are great =)
22:23 < cchamilt> That might shut people up.
22:23 < cchamilt> tcr:?
22:24 < cchamilt> I have no problem with Makefiles, but I know shell better. (Most people do)
22:25 < tcr> cchamilt: you criticed the ext packages to be out of date, broken etc. due to lacking on time of the particular maintainers. that's still accurate, and i doubt it can ever be handled very well
22:25 < cchamilt> The idea with shell based is to mimic what a user would do to build the package.
22:25 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah and I apologize. Most of that is my fault.
22:26 < tcr> i updated a few packages of yours in 1.5 ;)
22:26 < cchamilt> tcr: Luckilly a good bit of the packages are now maintained by (better) other people.
22:27 < zer0_o> what i wanted to say, is, it would be great, if there were some "makefile-like" installation way..
22:27 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah but all those parallel packages went to crap (so did some other obscure ones). They make the number of dead packages high.
22:28 < zer0_o> don't you think it's a good idea?
22:28 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Lambert will be doing a dmake based source distro, which I think will be what you want.
22:28 < cchamilt> zer0_0: It will use fake_root and take a new approach to building (probably not chroot).
22:29 < cchamilt> zer0_o: It will do build directories and so forth like a normal binary distro. (I think we are headed to a hybrid for 2.0 too)
22:31 < cchamilt> Like I said, I like shell as it mimics the user.  Make is way to sensitive to placement of things for me.
22:31 < cchamilt> I know I need to learn m4?, but I haven't needed to yet.
22:36 < zer0_o> look, i half-understanded what you said (i don't know much about linux) i'm learning fbsd at the moment, to understand how all works and they got great documentation.. i don't know what your goal is with rock-linux..  to get much users, or to let it be a distribution thats for year-long-linux-admins who know how all works..
22:39 < cchamilt> We have a goal (I think) to get as many admins to use it as possible.
22:40 < zer0_o> for me, as a newbie, i rather would take some gentoo than rock, because of that makefile-thing.. i don't want hurt you, and i hope you understand the big space between my knowlege about these things
22:40 < cchamilt> BSD has a rather neat way of updating the system as on entire package tree. (It acts as on massive program)
22:40 < cchamilt> Gentoo uses shell same as us.
22:41 < cchamilt> Portage is shell based. They are one of the biggest spreaders of FUD about what Ports actually is.
22:41 < zer0_o> ok, now i shot in my own knee =)
22:41 < zer0_o> FUD?
22:42 < cchamilt> Go search for Lambert on the web and see if he has done much yet.
22:44 < cchamilt> Fear, uncertainty, doubt (general half-truths and cloduing of issues to make an issue appear differently) in other words bad marketing.
22:45 < cchamilt> Personally, I don't mind if people use Gentoo.  I would just not wanted to be associated with the project.
22:45 < zer0_o> .. =|
22:46 < cchamilt> They market very heavily and their fearless leader has pissed off some core developers.
22:46 < tcr> cchamilt: doesnt gentoo use python? at least mainly
22:46 < cchamilt> Clifford (our leader) is much more credible to me.
22:47 < cchamilt> tcr: It used to have Python hooks in the 'shell' scripts to do things.
22:47 < cchamilt> tcr: Bugs and I think some speghetti code required that they stop using them.
22:47 < zer0_o> gentoo seems to be an anthill, they are working much .. all want to go there <- i think this is a negative point .. the forums are floatet sometimes with spam, i think...
22:48 < cchamilt> tcr: So now they use the shell without hooks and Python just for build order.
22:49 < tcr> nevermind, ive never thought of even considering gentoo since it's pretty mainstream, and mainstream tends to be quite boring. (never used debian as well)
22:49 < cchamilt> zer0_o:  They are swamped with too many developers (most not experienced) too fast.  This happens with cool projects.
22:50 < zer0_o> yeah, i think so too
22:50 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Their code and maintenance is even more questionable than before. (From Lambert tells me)
22:50 < zer0_o> hm, should i know this lambert ?
22:51 < cchamilt> zer0_o: Lambert quit helping as he said he wrote the instant CD system that play Unreal and drobbins took credit.
22:51 < owl> <-- sleeping.
22:51 < owl> gn8
22:52 < tcr> gn8 owl
22:52 < cchamilt> Lambert was a big contributor to Debian at the beginning.  Built (or helped build) many core things.
22:52 < zer0_o> ah
22:52 < zer0_o> n8 owl *knuddel*
22:52 < cchamilt> gn8 owl
22:52 < zer0_o> why he left debian ?
22:53 < tcr> cchamilt: why dont you attract him to come to rock? ;)
22:53 < zer0_o> why did he leave debian?
22:53 < owl> zer0_o: eh! don't do this!
22:53 < cchamilt> We met in Japan a few months ago (which started the whole Japan OSS initiative stuff)
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22:54 < cchamilt> He didn't leave, he is just helping with organization and planning now.  He wants Debian to go source based.
22:54 < cchamilt> He is scared of Rock because we run as root in the build and it is hard to fix it the way we make the distro.
22:54 < cchamilt> Though he promised to pilfer our code.
22:56 < cchamilt> He wrote this new package system which should let maintainers maintain over 100 packages easily.
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22:56 < cchamilt> It is using really huge macros and may be used in Debian in the future.
22:56 < zer0_o> some kinda freak =)
22:56 < cchamilt> It is an extension to dpkg.
22:57 < cchamilt> Yeah he is a really interesting guy.
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22:57 < cchamilt> Debian has the problem we are coming to (again) having 100 packages per maintainer.
22:57 < tcr> well running as root wouldn't be that bad if there was a proper jail implementation in the kernel (which is likely to be in future kernel version, since LSM will ease them quite a lot)
22:58 < zer0_o> what's wrong with building things with root ?
22:58 < cchamilt> Not enough core people that stick around.
22:58 < tcr> ease it
22:58 < cchamilt> zer0_o: What tcr said.  We need a jail as we (our code) might accidently be malicious to the host system.
22:59 < cchamilt> One screw up and we could kill you /dev or overwrite your glibc.
22:59 < zer0_o> the-rock, would be a good jail =)
22:59 < cchamilt> Plus we can't do development on other peoples (us not being root) servers.
22:59 < cchamilt> Debian does most development as not root.
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23:00 < cchamilt> :)
23:00 < holyolli> moin
23:00 < cchamilt> hi
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23:00 < zer0_o> hi
23:00 < holyolli> hi chris, zer0_o, Mike1
23:00 < tcr> cchamilt: well, not very hard for a non-source distro
23:00 < Mike1> cpt. holyolli
23:00 < Mike1> :)
23:00 < holyolli> Mike1: *g*
23:00 < cchamilt> tcr: Yep, it is quite a problem for us.
23:01 < zer0_o> hm, then is the way that rocks steps false ?
23:01 < cchamilt> zer0_o: No just not everything is ready for the Rock visionaries.
23:01 < zer0_o> or do you all have to develope some enviroment to handle this problem ?
23:02 < cchamilt> Actually user mode linux is probably our only solution.
23:02 < cchamilt> Even then I don't know how well things would interface.
23:03 < zer0_o> sounds distorted ...
23:03 * zer0_o 's brain smokes of thinking ...
23:04 < tcr> cchamilt: hmm, i imagine a script which will do something like a Build-Pkg, but let the user get interaction again when (normally) the .conf file would be evaluated. So it just cares about creating the necessary env. for flist... goal is to have a universally usable script with that you can (theoretically) compile all software, though you'll have the tricky meta-data later on
23:04 < cchamilt> I think there are still too many things done as root for user-mode-linux for us to ask for someone like sourceforge to let us build on their servers.
23:04 < tcr> and (as i only wanna be root when typing make install) i think it'll not force the user to root from the beginning on
23:05 < cchamilt> tcr: still have dependencies (you have to find the new library packages that were already built and not the host's)
23:06 < cchamilt> tcr: That is why we put things in a chroot, so new things can find each other during build.
23:06 < tcr> well that scripts is supposed to be used in a working system
23:07 < tcr> i often install smaller software that should never become a rock pkg
23:07 < cchamilt> BSD does their library linking and stuff all inside their tree. So it is about the only system that does it right.
23:07 < tcr> and the most ineresting thing of the meta-data are the flists and mdsums for me
23:08 < cchamilt> tcr: Yeah build-pkg works on a running system, but only to add or update packages.  Not to make a new 'clean' distro.
23:09 < tcr> yup
23:09 < cchamilt> tcr: You could chroot into a live build (that is how I fix rock packages that break as I build them) and modify things.
23:10 < cchamilt> tcr: And then run a modified metadata capture (using the new find by timestamp) and make your own 'package' data.
23:11 < tcr> hmm
23:12 < cchamilt> tcr: I think that making personal packages would be easier. (All you need is the download flag and whatever you need in .conf main.)
23:12 < cchamilt> No need for making it pretty.
23:13 < tcr> cchamilt: It sounds pretty easier than it actual is (easy as in consuming not much effort/time)
23:13 < tcr> consider you _have to_ know the way how it's to be installed
23:13 < tcr> ie.
23:13 < cchamilt> tcr: One reason I made a tone of packages was that they were easy to write (about as complicated as making notes on how to build the package).
23:14 < tcr> you need to extract the tar archive once before to read the README/INSTALLATION
23:14 < tcr> and if the programm uses autoconf/make you have to study the output of configure --help.
23:14 < cchamilt> Yep
23:14 < tcr> Then you can write a .conf file -- and the tar archive would have to be extraced once again
23:15 < tcr> (just one issue)
23:15 < cchamilt> I always end up writing these things down.
23:15 < cchamilt> In .ext is was just writing things down (I agree the new style is much more clumsy).
23:16 < cchamilt> ie ./configure --prefix=$prefix [add options] ; make ;make install and the thing built.
23:16 < cchamilt> The hardest thing was making a correct checksum for the D flag.
23:16 < Mike1> ok i am out of here
23:16 < Mike1> n8 all
23:16 < tcr> well. i often install something which I want to have removed, say, a month later (and of course I don't save the sources to do a make uninstall (when offered at all))
23:16 < cchamilt> night.
23:17 < tcr> and therefore the flists are quite tricky
23:17 < holyolli> cya
23:17 < cchamilt> You could do the timestamp find your self to a temporary file.
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23:18 < tcr> sounsd more like a detour.
23:18 < cchamilt> then cat $tmpfile | xargs rm -rf
23:19 < tcr> hm?
23:19 < cchamilt> to remove the package later.
23:19 < tcr> and $tmpfile should be?
23:19 < cchamilt> No need to use Rock system at all.
23:19 < Satg> Good night people !!!
23:19 < tcr> gn8 sath
23:19 < tcr> satg
23:19 < cchamilt> the stdout redirect from the find call.
23:19 < cchamilt> n8
23:19 < Satg> gn8 tcr
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23:20 < tcr> using timestamp isnt the most secure thing (dont ask me why, I once came to a reason, but cant remember right now)
23:21 < tcr> hmm
23:21 < cchamilt> find / -mmin 2 > $tmpfile
23:22 < cchamilt> Well you could also copy the guts that use strace I think.
23:22 < tcr> imagine a cron job modifying some important file
23:22 < cchamilt> I haven't looked at them.
23:22 < cchamilt> You should hand parse the tmpfile.
23:23 < cchamilt> (The Rock chroot build would not have daemons running so it would be safe there, just not a live system)
23:23 < zer0_o> i go to bed.. cu all and thanks for giving some clearness to my mind =) good night
23:23 < cchamilt> cya
23:23 < tcr> well. but Build-Pkg also handles the cases of not overwriting sysfiles AFAIK
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23:23 < cchamilt> nope
23:24 < cchamilt> That is a feature that 1.7 is working on fixing.
23:24 < tcr> however.
23:24 < cchamilt> Multiple touches create multiple packages with copies of the same file.
23:24 < tcr> icompletely  forgot the string we were going on 8-)
23:25 < cchamilt> basically you should do the find, but glance the directories in tmpfile and make sure it looks right.
23:25 < cchamilt> :)
23:25 < tcr> basically is nice
23:26 < cchamilt> I use it way too much.
23:26 < cchamilt> I get words stuck on my tongue when I think.
23:26 < tcr> once a flistwrapper written, you -basically- have only to  care about a proper setting of LD_PRELOAD
23:27 < cchamilt> now we are getting into stuff I don't knoww about :).
23:27 < tcr> besides i don't intend to defend myself for using ROCK, not as long as you're the facing judge ;->
23:28 < tcr> you are _not_ the facing judge
23:28 < cchamilt> :)
23:28 < tcr> oh
23:28 < tcr> i indeed negated that sentence
23:29 < cchamilt> I hardly get to use rock for business these days.
23:29 < cchamilt> It is always Redhat.  So, yes even I can't defend Rock well.
23:29 < tcr> aaah. keep mum!!! i'm gonna sleep now... it's 23:30 in germany and i have to get up in 6hours
23:29 < cchamilt> If it had RPMs and PAM...
23:30 < cchamilt> OK, I need sleep too.
23:30 < cchamilt> cya
23:30 < tcr> gn8 to you and your wife
23:30 < cchamilt> :) .
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23:32 < rolla> esden: ?
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23:55 < ringo30> hmm installing freebsd for ports collection ...
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 29 00:00:30 2003