--- Log opened Tue Oct 07 00:00:03 2003
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02:45 < rolla> re
02:56 < jsaw> hi rolla 
03:01 < rolla> hallo jsaw 
03:02 < jsaw> what's going on?
03:02 < rolla> working on my firewall
03:03 < rolla> and trying to figure out how to afford a athlon 64
03:03 < jsaw> once you find out, tell me
03:03 < rolla> :)
03:03 < jsaw> linuxfund.org?
03:04 * jsaw is trying to convince himself to work on his actual duties...
03:04 < rolla> and that is?
03:05 < jsaw> writing a report for the lab, finish tax stuff and other administrative paper sh*t for these fsck gov offices...
03:06 < rolla> :)
03:06 < rolla> de?
03:06 < jsaw> yes
03:06 < rolla> ah
03:22 < jsaw> what kinda firewall? home-net?
03:23 < esden> hi all
03:23 < rolla> home-net
03:23 < rolla> re esden 
03:24 < jsaw> hi esden
03:24 < jsaw> rolla: there was a nice lil article in CT (german computer magazine) about a home-net with router, server+dhcp+dyn dns+firewall etc
03:25 < rolla> :)
03:25 < rolla> jsaw I have 5 static ips 
03:25 < jsaw> oh, that's nice.
03:25 < rolla> so I have to do a different kind of firewall
03:25 < rolla> one for the DNS servers
03:25 < rolla> and a different one for the webserver/mailserver
03:26 < rolla> it will take some time to configure
03:26 < jsaw> damn german telekom, I just want *one* single static IP...
03:26 < rolla> :) sorry
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10:00 < deadOwl_> moin
10:04 < blindcoder> moun moun
10:04 < blindcoder> moin moin
10:37 < cchamilt> rehi
10:37 < cchamilt> is there anyway to actually generate a gem from an installed system?
10:39 < cchamilt> it looks like mine requires a tarball which you can't make without cutting from var/adm/flist/$pkg, talk about stoopid
10:43 < cchamilt> cute, clifford thinks it is cool you call mine -T to generate the cut, execute the cut text outputed, then mine -C to actually make the gem.
10:44 < cchamilt> Nevermind that -T and -C use similar inputs (which are quite alot of cli)
10:44 < cchamilt> We are userfriendly!
10:44 < cchamilt> Why would anyone ever use apt again...
10:58 < blindcoder> nice... /usr/src/* in a minimal+xfree build are >200 MB...
10:58 < blindcoder> /usr/include another 100
11:36 < deadOwl_> #$!!!asdfo!GNARF#~!!!
11:37 < cchamilt> globs are done!!!
11:38 < cchamilt> watching people suck goat tits?
11:39 < deadOwl_> ???
11:39 < cchamilt> this is just strange...
11:39 < cchamilt> some old 'fear factor' episode I think.
11:40 < cchamilt> They are competing to fill glasses of milk with their mouths.
11:41 -!- clifford_away is now known as clifford
11:42 < cchamilt> clifford: would you accept a patch to make gems cleaner than -T -C ?
11:43 < clifford> cchamilt: http://svn.rocklinux-consulting.de/mine/trunk/rocket.sh
11:44 < cchamilt> is rocket going to be the last new tool for rock?
11:45 < cchamilt> We are going to need a /usr/rock/bin soon :)
11:45 < clifford> rocket is planed since a while and many changes made to gasgui and mine lately are preperations for rocket network package pools.
11:45 < clifford> that would not be o.k. with FHS. It should be /opt/rock/bin ..
11:46 < cchamilt> I think features are great, just wish things were packages better.
11:47 * blindcoder making good progress with his "live"-CD *happy*
11:47 < blindcoder> moin chris, moin clifford
11:48 < clifford> hi blindy.
11:48 < cchamilt> I would prefer one package tool I guess, though I think it is fine if we have an apt-get and packager.  I am just whiny.
11:48 < cchamilt> hi bc
11:49 < cchamilt> clifford: what do you think of glob exclusion for mine?
11:50 < clifford> I think it's not needed when package splitting is implemented.
11:50 < clifford> http://www.rocklinux.net/flyspray/index.php?do=details&id=6
11:50 < cchamilt> Ugh.
11:52 < cchamilt> I like the idea of making a complete gem and then deciding what to be installed at installation time.
11:53 < cchamilt> cliffford: http://www.rocklinux.net/flyspray/?do=details&id=165
11:53 < clifford> what would you do with the package metadata?
11:54 < cchamilt> Like flists?
11:54 < clifford> yup.
11:54 < cchamilt> Well how are you going to seperate them at build time?
11:55 < cchamilt> Could just apply a 'sed' of the glob on /var/adm/flists ...
11:55 < clifford> ? (/me not understanding what you mean)
11:55 < clifford> ah. ok.
11:56 < clifford> so you would modify the package metadata when installings a package.
11:56 < cchamilt> I am guessing if it is necessary.
11:56 < cchamilt> What besides the flist needs modified?
11:57 < cchamilt> Is it a sin to modify flist?
11:57 < cchamilt> Does it need to be modified?
11:59 < cchamilt> Hmm. I dont see anything else that would be incorrect with exclusion.
11:59 < cchamilt> What happens when flist is inaccurate?
12:00 < cchamilt> If you -r it will just ignore missing files?
12:02 < cchamilt> -i is messed up as it thinks there is a 'Skip modified/duplicate file' when a file doesn't exist.
12:03 < cchamilt> clifford: What do you think about modifying flist at install?
12:03 < rxr> re
12:03 < cchamilt> hi rxr
12:04 < cchamilt> Should flist consider a deleted file modified?
12:04 < daja77> hi rxr
12:04 < rxr> hi daja77 cchamilt clifford 
12:06 -!- clifford is now known as clifford_away
12:06 * clifford_away is back soon...
12:06 < daja77> rxr: /me is meditating about a scanner problem, maybe you can give me a hint
12:06 < daja77> cu clifford_away 
12:08 < rxr> hm - I'm not that long around here - what is your problem ?
12:08 < daja77> a have two scanners, exactly the same model, one works like  a charm with rock, the other gives me i/o errors
12:09 < daja77> the one that does not work, works well with that other os, so that i can't generally say the hw is borken
12:09 < daja77> i have no idea where to look for this
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12:32 < jsaw_> re 
12:32 < jsaw_> hello everybody!
12:32 -!- jsaw_ is now known as jsaw
12:33 < jsaw> rxr: should I send a new gnome24 tarball, or do you inject the old one and I then send patches?
12:52 < jsaw> bbl
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13:05 < Mike1> moin all
13:05 < Mike1> ping cchamilt
13:06 < netrunne1> hi *
13:06 -!- netrunne1 is now known as netrunner
13:06 < Mike1> hi netrunner
13:06 < netrunner> anybody can share a working hl-key?
13:11 < daja77> hi Mike1 
13:11 < Mike1> hello daja77
13:12 < deadOwl_> hi Mike1 
13:12 * deadOwl_ talks to the wall
13:13 < Mike1> hi eule :)
13:13 < deadOwl_> Mike1: how are you?
13:13 < Mike1> good i guess, and you ?
13:13 < deadOwl_> hm. i feel pain - >  i must be alive.
13:14 < Mike1> ouch
13:14 < daja77> .oO owl could sing the latest johnny cash song *shiver*
13:14 < deadOwl_> daja77: ??? 
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13:15 < jsaw2> re2
13:15 < Mike1> wb2
13:15 < jsaw2> hehe, hi Mike1
13:16 < deadOwl_> guess i could not sing or even speak loud anymore... spoke too much to my trainer - but the result was the same as i wouldn't have spoken (ok, then i wouldn't have a dry throat)
13:16 < deadOwl_> wb2 jsaw2 
13:16 < jsaw2> hello deadOwl{,_}
13:17 < deadOwl_> {,_} <--- ????
13:17 < jsaw2> shell expansion for: deadOwl deadOwl_
13:17 < deadOwl_> ah so
13:18 < jsaw2> btw, fonts in gnome24 are working now
13:18 * jsaw2 is happy
13:19 < deadOwl_> oh no... bad new (aka meeting) is coming in 7 minutes *cries*
13:19 < daja77> have fun
13:19 < jsaw2> you'd better run, *fast*
13:20 < deadOwl_> daja77: *kick*
13:21 < deadOwl_> grey in grey day, raining, cold -> perfect for meeting --> "end-of-world-feeling"
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14:20 < rxr> hi jsaw 
14:20 < rxr> I would like to apply the gnome24 files so we all can track down the issues - and it is not lingering around for tooo long ...
14:22 < jsaw2> rxr: problem solved, just waiting for the gtk+ developers to respond 
14:22 < jsaw2> rxr: should I send a new gnome24 tarball, or patches after injection?
14:23 < rxr> a new tarball would be nice - I should svn rm gnome2?
14:24 < rxr> the bad thing is that we loose the history the real history for the gnome2 -> gnome24 update ... :-(
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14:25 < jsaw2> rxr: Well, if you find an easy way to move the files... and remove all cache files, then simply unpack my tarball over it... why not?
14:29 < rxr> jsaw2: due to all the new version encodings this is not that easy - maybe we should get rid of those?
14:29 < rxr> :-(
14:30 < jsaw2> that's the problem... (gnome24 does not have version encoding besides one package: "gnet" (v2) and "gnet1" (guess what))
14:34 < jsaw2> rxr: what's about the post-installation thing? Will it get accepted or do I/we have to find a different solution?
14:38 < rolla> re
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15:05 < deadOwl_> <- bored like hell
15:05 < deadOwl_> re btw
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15:09 * blindcoder too
15:09 < link_> hi all
15:09 < blindcoder> have to wait for build to finish. It's only a matter of hours >_<
15:09 < link_> my first consolechat?
15:09 < blindcoder> hi link_ 
15:09 < deadOwl_> hi link_ 
15:10 < deadOwl_> blindcoder: :-(
15:10 < deadOwl_> .oO(god, i _HATE_ my work, and even more my trainer)
15:11 < blindcoder> deadOwl_: Well, I need a complete build of my LVP to see if I missed anything...
15:11 < deadOwl_> LVP?
15:12 < blindcoder> Linux Video Player
15:12 < blindcoder> high name, nothing behind it :P
15:13 < blindcoder> it just boots, starts X, starts a small app which reads a pseudo-xml file and displays a menu of htings that can be played
15:13 < blindcoder> I simply want to re-archive my anime-collection on DVD and want those DVDs to be bootable
15:13 < deadOwl_> i c
15:13 < blindcoder> so I can just throw it into the drive, boot, and watch. No messing around with missing codecs on Windows--Machines and such
15:14 < daja77> hehe
15:14 < daja77> well i am interested in that target
15:14 < link_> what consolechat do you use ? =)
15:14 < blindcoder> it's basically an ass-fucked bootdisk-target.
15:14 < blindcoder> link_: irssi
15:14 < daja77> irssi
15:14 < link_> blindcoder, is it good ? =)
15:15 < link_> isn't irssi a irc-server?
15:15 < blindcoder> link_: it sucks.
15:15 < blindcoder> link_: but it does a good job at that :)
15:15 < daja77> blindcoder: ?
15:15 < blindcoder> daja77: !
15:16 < link_> i suck too, so i install it =)
15:16 < link_> =P
15:16 < blindcoder> good boy
15:17 < blindcoder> deadOwl_: so, how was the meeting
15:17 < deadOwl_> work over.
15:17 < deadOwl_> blindcoder: crap. boring, thx.
15:17 < deadOwl_> <- train
15:17 < deadOwl_> bye
15:17 < blindcoder> bye
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15:19 < link_> hi owl
15:20 < daja77> lol
15:21 * blindcoder watching some RoLW
15:30 < link_> she's gone..
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15:40 < link_> eisofen hehe
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16:05 < rxr> re
16:05 < rxr> hi iBook martin ...
16:08 < iBook> hi rxr
16:12 < rxr> hi iBook - how is life?
16:17 < iBook> rxr, hmmm it is okay. and yours?
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16:27 < rxr> it starts to sort out again ...
16:31 < mnemoc> hi rxr
16:31 < iBook> your life was unsorted?
16:31 < mnemoc> have you built bootdisk reciently?
16:32 < rxr> mnemoc: near the -rc1 tag
16:32 < rxr> I
16:32 < rxr> 'm just starting new builds
16:32 < rxr> iBook: you should know
16:44 < iBook> rxr: Yes, but I hope you don't regret the last time. Welcome back ;-)
16:46 < mnemoc> the whole bootdisk/stage1 fails because of 'stddef.h: No such file or directory' :(
16:48 < iBook> rxr: But momentary, I have no fun and interest for my study.
16:48 < rxr> iBook: haeh? 
16:49 < iBook> rxr: ups, bad english or bad content ?
16:51 * iBook will go eat something ... away
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16:56 < rxr> iBook: you will slow down or pause your study? or is it just the usual it is no fun thinking ?
16:57 < daja77> re
16:57 < rxr> hi daja77 
16:58 < daja77> hi rxr :)
16:58 < daja77> btw any idea?
16:59 < mnemoc> hi daja77 
17:01 < daja77> hey mnemoc :)
17:02 < rxr> cu later
17:02 < daja77> cu rxr :)
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17:13 < mnemoc> daja77: have you built bootdisk reciently?
17:13 < daja77> last week
17:13 < mnemoc> i'm geting lot of 'stddef.h: No such file or directory'
17:14 < daja77> i was sick and stopped working on rock, i think i'll start a new build soon
17:15 < iBook> re
17:18 < iBook> rxr: don't really know it. i need some time to think about it
17:26 < mnemoc> iBook: what are u studing?
17:31 < iBook> computer engineering (tech, informatik), the same as rxr
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18:00 < mnemoc> esden!!!!!!
18:00 < mnemoc> :(
18:06 < cchamilt> rehi
18:08 < mnemoc> hi 
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18:33 < cchamilt> damn my prefix functions appear broken for some package names.  Must be missing quotes somewhere...
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19:20 < iBook> cu all ...
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19:26 < deadOwl> moin
19:29 * deadOwl searches for someone who is willed to stand in front of /me and wants to be shot
19:34 < clifford> deadOwl: hmm.. interesting offer - but I'm affraid I have to pass this time..  ;-)
19:37 < deadOwl> hm. bad... hi clifford, btw
19:39 < clifford> hi owl, btw. whats up?
19:41 < deadOwl> nothing. just a day which was more crappy than every day before. how are you?
19:45 < cchamilt> clifford: I will try to send you the flist filter asap, I have to figure out how do it yet.
19:46 < clifford> cchamilt: I'm still not sure if i like modified flists ...
19:47 < mnemoc> flist should reflect what was installed 
19:47 < deadOwl> rm -rf / | YES
19:48 < mnemoc> bash: YES: command not found
19:49 < clifford> hmmm... however - rm might remove some stuff until the sigpipe kills it..
19:49 < cchamilt> clifford: Yes, I agree - should flist be generated in mine?
19:50 < clifford> cchamilt: I don't know - let me sleep a night on it..  ;-)
19:50 < deadOwl> mnemoc: bad luck
19:50 < cchamilt> OK
19:50 < deadOwl> clifford: it won't be killed... i'm in the mood for really executing this on my linux-system...
19:51 < mnemoc> flist has two works... deps and mine -r
19:51 < clifford> deadOwl: why?
19:51 < deadOwl> clifford: because i'm _aaaangry_ could in RL shoot someone and so on
19:52 < mnemoc> kill a cat :)
19:52 < deadOwl> mnemoc: nah
19:52 < clifford> and destorying your system would solve those problems?
19:52 * deadOwl playing megaherz - wer bist du, once again and again
19:52 < mnemoc> you can eat it alive 
19:53 < deadOwl> clifford: nope. but it would one of the things i like... if i cannot destroy myself, i should destroy something else
19:53 < clifford> yup - megaherz is great.
19:53 < cchamilt> I think owl has got windows reformat sickness.
19:53 * clifford singing "herz aus stein" *handbang*
19:53 < deadOwl> cchamilt: *lol* sure
19:53 < deadOwl> clifford: yeah, did you ever went to a concert of them?
19:53 < cchamilt> Or is it that you just want to punch a wall?
19:53 < clifford> deadOwl: no. what did i miss?
19:54 < deadOwl> cchamilt: punch a wall?
19:54 < deadOwl> clifford: dunno. never went to one, just someone told me that it was great
19:55 < clifford> better punch something that could punch back... it feels better to knock out something which could defense itself..
19:55 < cchamilt> You know, get your frustrations out by hurting something (yourself)?
19:55 < deadOwl> hmmm... true, maybe *har*
19:55 < cchamilt> A wall hurts good.
19:56 < deadOwl> cchamilt: a knive even better
19:56 < deadOwl> knife
19:56 < cchamilt> Punch a knife or knife a wall?
19:56 < deadOwl> knife && cut yourself
19:57 < cchamilt> Nah, do something slightly destructive to stop yourself from doing worse.
19:58 < cchamilt> I have learned how to punch a wall squarely so that I can hit it hurt without crippling myself.
19:58 < deadOwl> god, school is senseless, work is even more senseless, sitting in train for 4 hours/day is shit, parents hate me, bad luck happens all the day, trainer hates me/"mobbt" /me, parents are screaming to me... i don't want that shit anymore!
19:58 < deadOwl> cchamilt: hm. but why?
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19:59 < cchamilt> I know I just want to relieve a little tension, not hurt myself.
19:59 -!- scoopexH [~marc@td9091adb.adsl.terralink.de] has joined #rocklinux
19:59 < cchamilt> Hitting walls breaks fingers.
20:00 < deadOwl> hehe. hitting walls with head, causes "nasenbluten" and headache
20:00 < cchamilt> I think you just need someone else to complain to.
20:00 < deadOwl> cchamilt: why?
20:00 < cchamilt> Be passive agressive, etc.
20:00 < cchamilt> You can beat them up.
20:01 < deadOwl> cchamilt: *har* i already did have trouble with my "beloved" parents in my n/a "home" and so. and had trouble with my trainer and so... *sigh* :-(
20:01 < cchamilt> trainer?
20:01 < deadOwl> cchamilt: "ausbilder"
20:02 < cchamilt> yes but training for what, and what did you to the trainer
20:03 * deadOwl is doing a "ausbildung als fachinformatikerin anwendungsentwicklung" (3.rd year)
20:04 < cchamilt> ok that will not be in my dictionary. But I think I get it.
20:04 < cchamilt> Teacher/professor
20:04 < deadOwl> and did say, that i want to learn the stuff, which is written down in my contract (e.g. learning project management and so...) - and my "beloved" trainer said "you just have to read _one_ page of a short overview of project management and so on"...
20:05 < deadOwl> (ausbildung als fachinformatikerin anwendungsentwicklung = trainee as application developer)
20:06 < cchamilt> Back on OT subject: I say get a significant other then.
20:07 < cchamilt> Pick one up at the store.
20:07 < deadOwl> significant other of what?
20:07 < cchamilt> person, which ever way you swing.
20:08 < deadOwl> hm. nah, better not
20:08 < cchamilt> why?
20:09 < cchamilt> They dont cost that much to feed.
20:09 < mnemoc> you need to eat a cat
20:09 < deadOwl> *lol* nah. better a hamster
20:09 * clifford thinks that cchamilt has a very simple picture of what a women needs to be happy... *g*
20:09 < deadOwl> clifford: *lol* ack. and - true is my bf, btw :p
20:09 < deadOwl> --> have someone other... 
20:09 < mnemoc> hamsters don't defende themself as cats :)
20:10 < deadOwl> mnemoc: *g* oki. especially "tiny hamsters"
20:10 < cchamilt> No, I think a guy has simple needs, and owl can abuse him to get what she wants.
20:11 * clifford thinks that cchamilt also has a very simple picture of what a guy needs to be happy ... *g*
20:11 < deadOwl> what i want? *cough* .oO(thinking about: 10 000 000 000 euro, horses, dogs, villa at mallorca, car...)
20:11 * cchamilt I am simple.
20:11 < clifford> cchamilt: don't make conclusions from conclusions to everyone else..  ;-)
20:12 < clifford> s/from conclusions/from you/
20:12 * mnemoc wants just a notebook and a car ;)
20:12 * clifford has a notebook and a car.  ;-)
20:13 < mnemoc> are u happy?
20:13 < deadOwl> ah. forgot, want too: some new computers (sparcs, intels, alphas)... 
20:14 * daja77 waves
20:14 < mnemoc> daja77: you want too many things.... i'm happy with my daughters, wife and house :) notebook and car are optional ;)
20:14 < deadOwl> hi daja77 
20:14 < deadOwl> O_o
20:14 < clifford> hi daja77
20:14 < cchamilt> hi daja77
20:14 -!- clifford is now known as clifford_away
20:14 < daja77> mnemoc: ???!
20:15 < mnemoc> hi daja77 
20:15 < clifford_away> ciao daja77.. ;-)
20:15 < clifford_away> cu tomorrow...
20:15 < daja77> cu clifford_away :)
20:15 < cchamilt> cu
20:15 < mnemoc> cu clifford_away 
20:19 < mnemoc> daja77: i just notice i said daja: instead of deadOwl :(
20:20 < daja77> ic :))
20:21 < cchamilt> yes, that was confusing.
20:22 < daja77> hehe no worries thought you like confusions
20:22 < cchamilt> damn chatzilla is dropping focus.
20:22 < cchamilt> brb
20:22 -!- cchamilt [~chatzilla@cm83.gamma148.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ("ChatZilla 0.8.23 [Mozilla rv:1.3/20030331]")
20:23 -!- cchamilt [~chatzilla@cm83.gamma148.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #rocklinux
20:24 < cchamilt> I hope that fixed it.
20:27 -!- A-Tui [~Aitor@cable65a154.usuarios.retecal.es] has joined #rocklinux
20:28 < cchamilt> Anyways, I should get back to fixing my packages so I can send them to rene.
20:39 -!- link_ [~link_@adsl-212-101-21-193.solnet.ch] has quit ("Client exiting")
20:42 < rxr> re
20:43 < daja77> wb rxr
20:46 < mnemoc> hi rxr
20:48 < daja77> good news from anybody?
20:55 < mnemoc> seems not
20:56 < daja77> :(
21:03 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EAA8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
21:04 < tcr> moin all
21:04 < daja77> moin tcr
21:04 < daja77> ok so it is up to you telling us some good news
21:05 < tcr> Thanks daja77! thank, many thanks! you just reminded me that frontal21 is comming
21:05 * tcr bbl
21:06 < deadOwl> frontal21?
21:08 < tcr> on zdf
21:09 < deadOwl> http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,268588,00.html
21:10 < rxr> hi tcr 
21:11 < rxr> I have good news - my real life got sorted out a lot ...
21:11 < deadOwl> ginstall??? what is that? which package needs to be installed?
21:11 < deadOwl> sorted out? 
21:11 < daja77> rxr: hmm sounds not so good?
21:13 < rxr> deadOwl: yes - girls and such s.th. evil ...
21:13 < daja77> you are single again?
21:13 < rxr> daja77: nope - this has a positive emphasis ...
21:13 < deadOwl> http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/technologie/0,1518,268670,00.html
21:13 < rxr> daja77: nope
21:14 < daja77> rxr: good :))
21:14 < daja77> <- looking forward meeting his girl again next week
21:14 < deadOwl> hehe. 
21:16 < daja77> why are you laughing
21:17 < deadOwl> daja77: because /me imageines a "ungeduldigen" day-counting daja77 
21:17 < deadOwl> hm. nobody knows where to find ginstall?
21:17 < daja77> hmm ic
21:24 < deadOwl> http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/0,1518,268712,00.html
21:26 < blindcoder> deadOwl: ginstall == gnu install?
21:26 < blindcoder> hi hi and rehi (so btw. :)
21:27 < deadOwl> blindcoder: yes... foiund it out... and now i need gnome-config *sigh*
21:27 < deadOwl> hi blindcoder 
21:31 < esden> hi all
21:31 < blindcoder> hi esden!
21:32 < deadOwl> hi esdy
21:32 < esden> ahh ... that was a productive afternoon
21:33 * -> esden very happy ;)
21:33 < blindcoder> why that?
21:33 < daja77> hi esden *hug*
21:33 < esden> I had a meeting conserning the Piron project
21:33 < rxr> hi esden 
21:33 < esden> hi rxr 
21:34 < esden> hi daja77, blindcoder, deadOwl 
21:34 < blindcoder> ah ic
21:34 < esden> sbtw
21:34 < esden> ;)
21:34 < rolla> re
21:34 < daja77> re rolla :)
21:34 < deadOwl> hi rolla 
21:36 < esden> blindcoder: pyron project is that university project I want to do for my bachelor thesis ... only for explination ;)
21:37 < blindcoder> esden: thought so, the one you told me over Sushi last time?
21:37 < esden> ack
21:37 < esden> the more I learn about that project the more enthusiastic I am ;)
21:38 < blindcoder> so, may I bring you back down with the question when the "Aliasverwaltung" will be ready?
21:42 < esden> it will be ready when it will be ready ...
21:43 < netrunne1> hm ... obviously some packages do not build without the 24-headers ...
21:43 -!- netrunne1 is now known as netrunner
21:43 < esden> re netrunner ;)
21:43 < esden> long time no see ;)
21:43 < netrunner> hi esden, you were fast! :)
21:43 < blindcoder> well, please get a it enthusiastic about that one, too, or do you want me ti check that files' mtime?
21:45 < esden> netrunner: sure I am always
21:45 < esden> blindcoder: if you want to
21:46 < blindcoder> esden: If I didn't know that you just `touch`ed them right now :)
21:46 < netrunner> esden: you made your passengers step out and push your polo? :)
21:47 < esden> netrunner: noooo ...
21:47 < esden> blindcoder: ?
21:48 < blindcoder> esden: nothing :)
21:55 < daja77> n8 you all
21:55 < blindcoder> n8 deadOwl 
21:55 < blindcoder> n8 daja77 
21:55 < blindcoder> dammit
21:55 < blindcoder> ESTOOPID
21:56 < daja77> hehe go sleeping :)
21:56 < blindcoder> nah, stil have an anime
21:56 < blindcoder> no woman, so anime
21:57 < esden> n8 daja77 
21:59 < tcr> http://www.heise.de/newsticker/data/jk-03.10.03-001/
22:00 < tcr> Well, yet another reason for publishing games as free software. What's already free can hardly be robbed 
22:01 < blindcoder> the thing about half life 2?
22:01 < tcr> y0!
22:02 < blindcoder> well, I doubt that Valve woud even think about releasing a game they want to make money with as free software
22:08 < tcr> Eventually everything will become libre anyway
22:10 < rxr> cu
22:11 < tcr> bye rxr
22:12 < esden> n8 rxr 
22:12 < cchamilt> n8 rxr
22:13 < cchamilt> tcr: Yes, a world where we can all choose to be starship captains.
22:13 < cchamilt> Of course I call dibs on the coolest ship.
22:14 < blindcoder> hey, the defiant is mine!
22:14 < cchamilt> :)
22:15 * -> esden goes hunting
22:15 < esden> cu l8er
22:15 < tcr> dibs?
22:15 < cchamilt> cya esden
22:15 < cchamilt> tcr: claim
22:16 < esden> argh ... I WANT DIABLO II !!!
22:16 < blindcoder> esden: I'd have it over here....
22:16 < tcr> cchamilt, this is colloquial?
22:16 < blindcoder> why do you want it so badly?
22:16 < cchamilt> yes
22:16 < esden> blindcoder: can you put an iso somewhere?
22:17 < blindcoder> ehm... well... I _could_
22:17 < cchamilt> I have it and the monk addon, but not sharing on p2p anymore (ran out of space)
22:17 < blindcoder> but I could also just give it to you tomorrow
22:17 < esden> blindcoder: yes that is right
22:17 < esden> blindcoder: so we make it tomorrow
22:17 < blindcoder> ok
22:18 < esden> and I need the win cd ;)
22:18 < esden> ok ... but now I am really off for food ;)
22:18 < blindcoder> there is only the windows version
22:18 < blindcoder> but it works flawless in winex
22:19 < esden> very nice
22:20 < blindcoder> hmm
22:20 < blindcoder> my LVP Target still has tons of unused code >_<
22:20 < cchamilt> dang flist probs.
22:20 < cchamilt> cyrus-imap spews into /usr/local some things.
22:21 < cchamilt> sed -e "s.usr/local/,$prefix/," doesn't seem to work in the wrapper.
22:21 < tcr> cchamilt, Well.. you know I'm already counting the days of capitalism, and the major (if not the only) obstacle for free software is our capitalistic kind of society. Of course IMHO and YMMV
22:22 < cchamilt> People are too stupid and untrusting to remove an economy from life, so I don't see captialism (in some form) ever going away.
22:22 < blindcoder> tcr: unsigned long days_of_capitalism, days_of_mankind; assert (days_of_capitalism > days_of_mankind);
22:24 < cchamilt> software is just knowledge in a package, that package can be relatively cheap.  everything else in the world is not.
22:24 < tcr> Nah, capitalism is conceptually doomed to cave away itself
22:24 < cchamilt> if we figure out how to make everything we need from the air, then air will become a commodity.
22:25 < tcr> Well, the thing is that it's brainfucked and especially damn difficult to map money on ideas/information
22:25 < cchamilt> sure its not
22:26 < cchamilt> I can fix your computer for $35.
22:26 < cchamilt> Or I can sit there and stare at it for $10.
22:26 < tcr> fixing a computer is a service provision
22:27 * A-Tui is away: You can ring my bell
22:27 < cchamilt> based on quality of expertise.
22:27 < cchamilt> expertise=stored knowledge
22:28 < cchamilt> when stored knowledge is a google search, it becomes cheaper, but it is still knowledge
22:28 < cchamilt> information wants to be cheap.
22:28 < tcr> information _can_ be cheap
22:29 < tcr> And your mentioned quality of expertise is not easily valuable in forms of money
22:29 < tcr> Or how do you call a programmer productive?
22:29 < cchamilt> Sure it is, I can convince you I am smart and capable.
22:29 < tcr> s,how,when,
22:29 < cchamilt> By bullshitting stoopid people.
22:30 < cchamilt> I have long hair, therefore I know something.
22:30 < tcr> that means?
22:30 < cchamilt> As long as people do not have 'knowledge' they must trust that someone else does.
22:30 < tcr> Well, I have too (but they (my hairs) are prognozed to fall out when I'm around 30, sadly)
22:30 < cchamilt> They are convinced of expertise by things they can judge.
22:30 < tcr> prognozised? whatever
22:31 < cchamilt> Get a pony tail and beard, you would be so set for looking knowledgable.
22:31 < blindcoder> Unix Geek with a beard... hmm...
22:32 < blindcoder> Sid comes to mind :)
22:32 < cchamilt> Of course, I always think of bald guys with ponytails as snobs, but that is my environment talking.
22:32 < cchamilt> Yep.
22:32 < tcr> Wait, I'm looking for something
22:32 < cchamilt> Perception is everything when you are in a knowledge market - such as IT.
22:33 < tcr> Yeah, and that just indicates how brainfucked it is
22:33 < tcr> or how difficult respectively
22:33 < cchamilt> It is your future, most carriers are brainfucked in someway.
22:34 < cchamilt> careers not carriers
22:34 < cchamilt> Plumbers sit on their ass all day so can call them in an emergency.
22:34 < cchamilt> They then charge you $200 an hour.
22:34 -!- scoopexH [~marc@td9091adb.adsl.terralink.de] has quit (Remote closed the connection)
22:34 < tcr> but my point was that capitalism is making its own pitfall
22:35 < cchamilt> Nah, it has been this way since the BCs.
22:35 < tcr> for instance because of the society shift into a society based almost entirely on information
22:35 < cchamilt> IP, public knowledge, etc. has been around in one form or another since man used tools.
22:35 < tcr> and since money and information doesn't play well... good bye
22:36 < cchamilt> There will always be someone vending better information.
22:36 < cchamilt> Information as a whole might get cheaper.
22:36 < tcr> Damn fucking yeah! You know what? the whole shit about IP is a desperate try to get information into a form that is handable by the capitalistic system
22:36 < cchamilt> But not everything, ford is not going to start making porsches, etc.
22:37 < tcr> no ford will be making design drafts about their cars (==information), but they won't themselves construct those
22:37 < cchamilt> Most information comes in a captitalistic form to begin with.
22:38 < cchamilt> Ford ask: How did porsche make its car?
22:38 < blindcoder> too much politic for me, I'm going to bed. n8
22:38 < cchamilt> n8
22:38 < tcr> blindcoder, dont worry I'll just follow in some minutes :)
22:39 < cchamilt> tcr: exactly, specific forms of info (software/docs) will become really cheap.
22:39 < cchamilt> documentation explaining how to build things, not so much. 
22:39 < tcr> I disagree (maybe a result because of misunderstanding):
22:40 < tcr> digital information is naturally cheap
22:40 < cchamilt> yes
22:40 < tcr> it's not gonna become that, because it's per se
22:40 < tcr> the thing is that (actually cheap) information is going to get more and more value
22:41 < cchamilt> um, I think it is that more information will become cheaper quicker.
22:41 < cchamilt> There will be 'marriages' of cheap information to create more value.
22:42 < tcr> I can't see how information can get cheaper
22:42 < cchamilt> such as a linux distro of free tools.
22:42 < cchamilt> ex.
22:42 < cchamilt> I know how to make coca cola.
22:42 < rolla> http://www.theonion.com/3939/news1.html
22:42 < cchamilt> I know not many other people do.
22:42 < cchamilt> So I can make a business competing with coca cola.
22:43 < cchamilt> The recipe slips out on the web.
22:43 < cchamilt> Suddenly everyone can make their own coke for parties.
22:43 < cchamilt> I can still make coke, but it will be in limited distribution.
22:44 < cchamilt> coca cola the company can still make coke, but not for those parties.
22:44 < cchamilt> So the knowledge of coca colas recipe, as it spreads lowers the value of knowing the recipe.
22:46 < cchamilt> My personal example:
22:46 < cchamilt> I made a groupware server to compete with exchange.
22:46 < cchamilt> Its price was $20000
22:46 < tcr> it'll lower its monetary or business value, but not its "use value" (afaik this is a term used and maybe coined by capitalism, if so I do _not_ mean that specific meaning)
22:47 < cchamilt> As more people enter the market (providing similar knowledge solution)
22:47 < cchamilt> I will have to compete and so will they.
22:47 < cchamilt> They minimal price of the software is the cost of media.
22:47 < tcr> in fact its use value will be pushed with the growth of its use
22:47 < cchamilt> Not really.
22:48 < cchamilt> Not every business needs an ERP solution.
22:48 < tcr> Of course. Linux is getting more and more valueable as it's getting more in widespread use
22:48 < cchamilt> At some point, everyone who bought from SAP will be their only customers.
22:48 < cchamilt> Knowing how to design a ERP then becomes worthless.
22:48 < tcr> whatever those acronyms mean...
22:49 < cchamilt> Enterprise Resource Planning - what SAP does.
22:49 < cchamilt> The ERP business peaked last year.
22:50 < tcr> Hrm
22:50 < cchamilt> The ERP makers - Oracle, SAP, etc. have to lower their prices, add much more features, lie that a company needs the software, etc. to get new customers.
22:51 < cchamilt> million dollare deals are fast becoming under 100k deals (to fit a lower market that doesn't need the product).
22:51 < cchamilt> ERPs are really stupid for most companies and actually cost more to run than paper versions.
22:52 < cchamilt> So ERP is a valid product for fortune 500 companies, however there are only 500 of those...
22:53 < cchamilt> I will admit that things like linux, or a language grow in value as it is used.
22:53 < tcr> Maybe (i'm just recapitulating) I just begun wrongly. Let's put it this way: libre software or libre information in general doesn't fit into the capitalism very well, in fact it partially causes a breakage of the system (because as you showed above the business value of something gets drastically in direction to zero once it's published in a libre way).
22:53 < cchamilt> But, that will see flux.
22:54 < cchamilt> Linux has scalability concerns with community support.
22:55 < cchamilt> When a language (such as English) is separated from other English speakers - dialects form.
22:55 < cchamilt> Societies aren't perfect, and knowledge valued on its society will reflect that.
22:58 < cchamilt> Lets put it this way, knowledge can grow in value, while expertise decreases in value as the knowledge becomes common.
22:58 < tcr> I think all kinds of information ought to be free (the why is matter for another day), and as information is getting more and more valuable, the consequence is capitalism will go away one time
22:58 < cchamilt> Assuming the knowledge is helpful to know.
22:59 < cchamilt> Yes, but it is nature for people to try and protect their valuable expertise in trade for limited benefits for society.
23:00 < tcr> Why do you give up expertise?
23:00 < cchamilt> It is tough to be in this position.
23:00 < cchamilt> Not giving up expertise, giving up the value of your expertise.
23:00 < tcr> what value exactly?
23:01 < cchamilt> If I sell my mailserver, it retains my expertise value.
23:01 < tcr> Fuck, I mixed up expertise and expierence %)
23:01 < cchamilt> If I post it on sourceforge, the mailserver knowledge becomes free, but my expertise value is less.
23:01 < cchamilt> ie. New experts (users of the free code) appear, meaning they wont hire me.
23:02 < cchamilt> They might donate money to me out of guilt or pitty.
23:03 < cchamilt> But it is free software, why pay for it.
23:03 < tcr> I'm feeling we've been talking cross all the time
23:03 < tcr> (that's not an accusation that you didn't listen to my arguments, it's just that I feel so...)
23:04 < cchamilt> My point is that capitalism will exist, and the free software is still a part.
23:04 < tcr> I'm not sure how you come to economics of free software at current time
23:05 < tcr> Well, and one of my points is that Free Software isn't actually part of capitalism
23:05 < cchamilt> My opinion is that proprietary software people always over value their work.
23:05 < cchamilt> Free software people always under value it.
23:06 < tcr> Funny, I see the other way around
23:06 < tcr> the individual developers of free software certainly values his work more than some more or less anonymous developer of some prop. product
23:06 < cchamilt> Ah, free software=priceless?
23:07 < tcr> no free as in libre
23:07 < cchamilt> No I mean the discussion that once a software is free it may be used for every by everyone and is therefore a priceless gift to the world.
23:08 < cchamilt> ESR babbles.
23:09 < cchamilt> But you are saying free software is driven by egos. (still part of ESRs thesis)
23:09 < tcr> that's not ESR's opinion
23:09 < cchamilt> OK, then what is his opinion?
23:10 < tcr> cchamilt, let's give up.. we lost us anywhere :) let's try again the next time
23:10 < cchamilt> OK, sure.
23:10 < tcr> cchamilt, how good is your german (reading)?
23:10 < cchamilt> not really useful.
23:11 < cchamilt> What do you want me to read>
23:11 < tcr> http://www.oekonux.org/
23:12 < tcr> That's actually mainly a german group and so most texts are german
23:12 < tcr> Most of my opinion and ideas is based on that project
23:13 < cchamilt> How close is to FSF-
23:13 < cchamilt> How close is to FSF-Europe's ideas?
23:14 < cchamilt> I'll look over what I can of it.
23:14 < tcr> no idea, where are they ideas stated?
23:15 < cchamilt> They have numerous ways of looking at it.  Some good, some wacky.  I got them most from talking to the guys.
23:15 < cchamilt> They see freesoftware as a public work and base most thoughts on that.
23:15 < tcr> I just see that many of the greater articles are (partly?) translated into english
23:16 < cchamilt> Yeah, I will see what they say.
23:16 -!- kasc_ [~kasc@dsl-213-023-066-091.arcor-ip.net] has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
23:16 < tcr> E.G. http://www.opentheory.org/gplsociety/text.phtml
23:17 < tcr> as you see that's german block - translated block ...
23:17 < tcr> not the best way for reading...
23:18 < tcr> nevermind
23:18 < cchamilt> No, and it isnt all done.
23:18 < tcr> cchamilt, (free software as public work:) Well I can just say that I share this opinion
23:18 < cchamilt> Its OK, I'll look around.  Not being part of the economy, I have time.
23:19 < tcr> For example I think that free software developers should be paid by the state (that's also something which RMS would advocate)
23:19 < tcr> and not by private companies
23:20 < cchamilt> Yes, I agree with it too. I just think not everything about free software is the same as building a dam.
23:21 < cchamilt> Yes, well I will move to the first country that openly hires free software programmers.
23:21 < tcr> You mean more theoretical vs. more practical work?
23:21 < cchamilt> Yep.
23:21 < cchamilt> There are some differences.
23:21 < tcr> Well
23:22 < cchamilt> Most are positives for free software.
23:22 < tcr> As I mentioned earlier today, that's going to change
23:22 < tcr> the more practical aspect will fade away with time
23:22 < cchamilt> OK
23:23 < tcr> That's btw. one of the reason why we need a big, a very big shift in education
23:23 < cchamilt> I think what will happen will happen naturally.
23:23 < cchamilt> Anyway, we should talk later.
23:24 < tcr> Well :) tomorrow I'll have informatics as first two hours
23:24 < cchamilt> heh
23:25 < tcr> Have you ever had to do stuff in delphi?
23:25 < cchamilt> No pascal is something I skipped and Delphi was after my education.
23:26 < tcr> I find it an awefully bad IDE
23:26 < cchamilt> I do have a copy of turbo pascal at my parents house somewhere.
23:27 < tcr> Well pascal is something for its own
23:27 < cchamilt> Most IDEs suck, I am never comfortable with them.
23:27 < tcr> but I'm really pissed on that I can't just do things on the sourcecode (like changing names and stuff) because delphi ain't able to recognize my changes
23:27 < cchamilt> I always end up in pico.
23:28 < cchamilt> That is part of RAD I guess.
23:29 < tcr> ratpoison + heavily scripted vim sounds like a good combination to me
23:29 < cchamilt> I don't play with gui design much, been thinking about trying it.
23:30 < tcr> Well, we use delphi because it's not necessarily to play with gui much
23:30 < cchamilt> IDEs and RAD is all about doing the job of programming, not making great programs.
23:31 < cchamilt> Bosses want to see things, and users want buttons.  It is good you are learning it.
23:32 < tcr> I don't I'm learning /that/
23:32 < tcr> +think
23:33 < cchamilt> It will help you not be a bum like me.
23:33 < tcr> First as said we use delphi so that we dont need to concentrate on gui but rather on alhos
23:33 < tcr> second we've had aprox. 8 or 10 lessons so far
23:33 < SMP> cchamilt: lol ;)
23:34 < cchamilt> hi smp
23:34 < tcr> and except for me there's none in the course who has ever programmed
23:34 < SMP> tcr: do it like clifford would - rewrite everything in asm ;->
23:34 < SMP> just because you're bored
23:34 < cchamilt> Well that kind of sucks, but maybe as intro classes go it isn't so bad.
23:35 < cchamilt> My school did freshman pascal for all engineers.  Industrial engineers would later use that knowledge in visual basic classes.
23:35 < tcr> btw. s,alhos,algos,
23:36 < cchamilt> As a computer engineer/science major we learned C, C++.  However the Industrial engineers had more employable skills....
23:36 < cchamilt> I figured that.
23:37 -!- kasc_ [~kasc@dsl-213-023-064-048.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
23:37 < tcr> Well, the thing is that a computer engineer isn't a programmer
23:38 < cchamilt> Depends on your schools outlook, but yes computer engineers and computer science majors aren't code monkeys.
23:38 < cchamilt> They used to have to be, now they have transcended into useless theoretical crap.
23:39 < tcr> that's what I'm gonna do, too 
23:39 < cchamilt> I was making VLIW before intel, etc.
23:39 < cchamilt> Yes, but when you graduate you may want a job.
23:40 < tcr> cchamilt, I guess one reason why science is prefered to the art of programming is that you can grade that easierly
23:40 < cchamilt> Computer scientists are technology philosphy majors.
23:40 < cchamilt> computational philosophy
23:41 < tcr> and that's again is a reason why some people demand a kinda apprenticeship when teaching programming
23:41 < cchamilt> Yes, most classes in computer * involves learning math and algorithms.
23:41 < cchamilt> Things useless, to any visual basic clicking jockey.
23:43 < tcr> Ok, I'm _really_ gonna sleep now. gn8
23:43 < cchamilt> The world will tell you we need IT people, the thing they don't tell you is that they either want MSCEs or PHDs.
23:43 < cchamilt> Yes, sorry for being bitter.
23:43 < cchamilt> Cya.
23:43 < tcr> I hope that I'm one of those who are paid by my damn government. Oh well, let me dream ;)
23:44 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EAA8FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("Leaving")
23:44 < cchamilt> heh
23:47 < cchamilt> OK, I am too ranty.  I need sleep.
23:51 -!- tsa [tsa@pD95255E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
23:51 < tsa> hi
--- Log closed Wed Oct 08 00:00:21 2003