--- Log opened Mit Nov 19 00:00:14 2003
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00:26 < daja77> re
00:29 < MadTux> wb daja77
00:29 < daja77> hey MadTux 
00:29 < daja77> hehe backlog full of rxr rants
00:32 < daja77> MadTux: how are yoi
00:32 < daja77> you
00:34 < MadTux> gut playing with a sendmail explid 
00:34 < MadTux> explid*
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01:11  * daja77 off to bed now
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02:51 < cchamilt> anybody know of web usability stuff (big fonts, etc.)
02:52 < cchamilt> I am trying to make TV output capable browsing and so figure I need large fonts, etc. 
02:54 < cchamilt> or konq or anything with clean large fonting, etc. support.
02:55 -!- kasc [~kasc@dsl-213-023-065-027.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
03:31 < mnemoc> re
03:44 < mnemoc> anybody knows how to use the m68k's timer?
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06:41 < vegai> ok, I did some research on obsoleted coreutils stuff
06:42 < vegai> I got from debian's NG that tail -N and tail +N (where N is a number) are obsoleted
06:42 < vegai> they do not conform to POSIX 1003.1-2001
06:43 < vegai> now... Rock's installation scripts use -N...
06:44 < vegai> *shrug* I guess I'll just file a bug then. I hope someone cares
07:16 < rxr> hi vegai 
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07:41 < vegai> morning
08:17 < netrunne1> moin
08:18 -!- You're now known as netrunner
09:06 < cchamilt> we need a better mirror test. I think the mirror test I get is cached some way and then always fails for real downloads. :(
09:07 < cchamilt> http://ftp.leo.org sucks from spore
09:08 < cchamilt> yet gets a 20k through on the mirror test and kicks everyone elses butt.
09:09 < cchamilt> So it fails on each download and I end up getting packages from source.
09:10 < cchamilt> We either need to vary the mirror test, or explain to the mirror hosts that the test should not be cached.
09:14 < cchamilt> oh shit. this explans it.  Mirror in wrong url.
10:26 < daja77> moin
10:32 < netrunner> hi daja77 
10:32 < daja77> hi netrunner 
10:32 < netrunner> maybe you can help me understand this?
10:32 < netrunner> I created a package, for a tool that ignores it's prefix given to configure
10:33 < netrunner> so I put var_append makeinstopt " " "PREFIX=/usr"
10:33 < netrunner> but that does not work either.
10:33 < netrunner> manually calling make install PREFIX=/usr works as expected.
10:33 < netrunner> what am I doing wrong?
10:35 < daja77> no idea
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10:43 < Baldzius> hello
10:46 < netrunner> olleh
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11:31 < netrunner> weird. the package builds fine using scripts/Build-Pkg, but fails using scritps/Emerge-Pkg
11:32 < daja77> Ermerge-Pkg shows weird behaviour sometimes, just dunno why
11:33 < netrunner> daja77: yeah, just experienced some of it ;)
11:35 < netrunner> hm. http://dialanorgasm.com/
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12:44 < netrunner> esden: 'wish, you were here ...'
14:27 < cytrinox`> moin
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15:56 < rxr> re
16:05 < rxr> cu laater ...
16:28 < channelDragon> shit
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17:01 < blindcoder> hi all
17:17 < blindcoder> bye all
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18:55 < ripclaw> HELO
18:56 < ripclaw> ping ffffffff
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19:30 < tcr> moin all
19:30 < netrunner> moin tcr
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20:06 < rxr> re
20:15 < netrunner> hi rxr
20:16 < netrunner> anybody knows why I get only b/w in my aterm with vim? sshed into my server it shows nice colors ...
20:20 -!- netrunne1 [~andreas@p508029BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #rocklinux
20:20 -!- Topic for #rocklinux: ROCK Linux approaching 2.0 - join now - http://www.rocklinux.org/rock20.html
20:20 -!- Topic set by ChanServ [] [Tue Sep  2 15:34:51 2003]
20:20 [Users #rocklinux]
20:20 [ [anders] ] [ blindcoder   ] [ daja77] [ MadTux   ] [ rolla] [ th       ] 
20:20 [ _spectre_] [ cchamilt     ] [ esden ] [ mistik1  ] [ rxr  ] [ trekkie3k] 
20:20 [ A-Tui    ] [ channelDragon] [ h1ma7e] [ mnemoc   ] [ SMP  ] [ true     ] 
20:20 [ Aard     ] [ clifford     ] [ hannes] [ netrunne1] [ snyke] [ vegai    ] 
20:20 [ aszlig   ] [ cytrinox`    ] [ kasc  ] [ netrunner] [ tcr  ] 
20:20 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 29 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 29 normal]
20:20 -!- Channel #rocklinux created Sun Aug  3 22:11:35 2003
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20:24 < netrunne1> hm ... inside screen it is fine :/
20:30 < cchamilt> rxr:?
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20:39 -!- You're now known as netrunner
20:43 < rxr> cchamilt: yes
20:58  * netrunner xfigging
21:01 < rxr> xfig - oh poor netrunner 
21:44 < rxr> me updatating xfree86 - that is a equal pain
21:51 < netrunner> rxr: not that bad, I kinda like it :)
21:51 < netrunner> rxr: but if you recommend a tool that does the same better ...
21:53 < rxr> I heared qcad might be worth a try
21:53 < rxr> sodipody migth also be a try
21:53 < rxr> what do you need to draw?
21:54 < netrunner> currently figures of the osi modell, some graphs of ip packets on an ethernet (layer 1)
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22:03 < rxr> oohh - xfree86 has not yet stopped building
22:03 < rxr> time for a commit
22:15 < cchamilt> hmm getting kde to build while qt is linked to mysql is a problem.  No clean way to force kde* to add /opt/mysql/lib. 
22:16 < cchamilt> much easier to move mysql into /usr I think.
22:18 < cchamilt> rxr: How is the x update going?
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22:20 < rxr> cchamilt: I have not tried qt + mysql (/opt) + kde yet ...
22:20 < rxr> cchamilt: xfree update is mostly finished I hope
22:20 < rxr> test build running - commit it this second
22:20 < cchamilt> Good, I worry about making such a big change right now.
22:21 < cchamilt> It would be good to gut x asap though.  It is so bloated.  I dislike projects that 'suck' in their own versions of other packages.
22:22 < cchamilt> Openoffice needs some of this package removal too.  But I understand them wanting everything exactly the same for tech support.
22:23 < cchamilt> It just ruins the point of having libraries.
22:24 < cchamilt> mythtv needs qt's bindings for mysql so I had to do a pkg_qt31.conf that added them in.
22:24 < cchamilt> Now I need kde to get konqueror so that mythtv can use konq hooks to have a browser.
22:25 < cchamilt> I am wondering if a window-like gui is the best solution for specific operation of a computer.
22:26 < cchamilt> Back in the cli day, menu systems ruled most companies and organized computer users.
22:27 < cchamilt> I am wondering if a nice menu system (similar to mythtv's) could be used today to make an intuitive interface.  Kind of like cellphone menus.
22:28 < cchamilt> I mean menus and a networked filebrowser/webbrowser is about all one needs if you don't need drag and drop between apps.
22:29 < cchamilt> Maybe that could be worked around too, by using some simple windowing behavior.
22:32 < cchamilt> Basically in todays gui-ness it would be putting interaction priorites first at a (much improved) start menu first, then a taskbar/switch, and then a desktop window system .
22:32 < cchamilt> Right now most window systems reverse this.
22:35 < cchamilt> twm, blackbox put start menu ahead of taskbar by putting it on the mouse.  But then people like to see icons in front of them, so they add crap to panels.  It would be good to literally swap between a full-screen menu based launcher  and the actual desktop.  Maybe making new desktops for each app.
22:36 < cchamilt> Apps could also be grouped to launch together or to tab/desktop together if launched.
22:37 < cchamilt> yeah, arts31 didnt bork.
22:38 < netrunner> rxr: regression tester about to finish?
22:39 < cchamilt> overloaded desktop are messy, they make apps get in each other way.  I wonder how to fix this so that there can be side-by-side cut and paste/comparisons.
22:39 < cchamilt> maybe split frames like emacs.
22:39 < rxr> ok - commit does not compile yet
22:39 < rxr> updated commit in a few seconds
22:40 < rxr> netrunner: nope - due to damn xfree updatging
22:40 < cchamilt> rxr: heh, you should not be using the stable tree as a working tree...
22:40 < vegai> do any of you use cfengine?
22:41 < vegai> just wondering if it works as well as it claims to...
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22:41 < cchamilt> I have looked at it, but I never had much need for that level of automation.  I think if you work hard on the scripts cfengine does good.
22:43 < rxr> cchamilt: I know that I should not commit any single change - but I need to go to bed and wanted other to take a look ...
22:43 < rxr> and there was a bit possibility to finsihed
22:43 < rxr> I even thought about a trunk-incomming where any single change get's in and merging into trunk when one step (e.g. this xfree86 mess) is finished
22:43 < cchamilt> Yeh, that is why we need multiple trees.  So people can look at each others work.
22:44 < rxr> nope - that will be a mess - what change is where ...
22:44 < rxr> we need s.th. like the submaster proposal written by Cliff and me ..
22:44 < cchamilt> well who wrote it should own the change.
22:45 < cchamilt> wheres the proposal?
22:46 < rxr> puh - one was on rock-linux I guess
22:46 < rxr> I guess the updated one is not yet announced
22:47 < cchamilt> Ill look for it.
22:49 < cchamilt> submaster is not found by searching in typo3.
22:50 < cchamilt> nope not in mail archive either.
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22:52 < cchamilt> I just propose 3 or so responsible people be allowed to log changes in to the official tree, everyone has their own tree like bit keeper.  We set a list of packages (build chain, etc.) that cant be touched without lots of testing and then closer stable/development branching.
22:52 < rxr> ok - cchamilt I just wrote cliff to release the new proposal of submaster
22:53 < cchamilt> OK, I will read it when it shows up :)
22:56 < cchamilt> For instance here we could keep our current x, then you could also fix x and have people try it out.  If everything works well then it gets bumped in.  If unforseen problems occur, it doesnt through rock into chaos for months.
22:57 < cchamilt> through, throw man my brain is weird
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22:59 < rxr> the submaster proposal includes write access for most developers
22:59 < rxr> all the changes get into a "scratch" (or so) branch
22:59 < cchamilt> I dont think arbitrary write access is good.
22:59 < rxr> the changes go thru a regression test and the changesets get marks about the progress
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23:00 < cchamilt> so which changes get into the scratch branch to be tested, do they just que up?
23:00  * netrunner likes the idea, als he does not need write access himself.
23:00 < rxr> the tree maintainer can send browse thru the changeset and aprove them (they go into the main trunk) or discard them (for a rewrite by the maintainer)
23:00 < netrunner> enough different trees here to maintain :)
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23:01 < rxr> cchamilt: the changesets are in the normal subversion repository in /scratch or so
23:01 < rxr> everyone can use it just normally - but into /trunk only the tree maintainer has write access and the possibility to aprove chagesets from the /scratch
23:01 < cchamilt> yes, but what changes break what, etc.
23:01 < cchamilt> I also think we need more than one maintainer.
23:02 < rxr> well the regression tester tries to mark as much as it can with status informatoin
23:02 < rxr> we need more developers first
23:02 < rxr> cchamilt: I know there are queued patches from you - maybe you just send an updated version to rock-linux for per review
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23:02 < cchamilt> we need better developers, yes. However, we should work with what we have.
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23:03 < rxr> I did not imply we need better developers - I only wrote more ..
23:03 < cchamilt> I have to remerge some changes.  My targets are also pretty close to being includable so I may wait for them.
23:04 < cchamilt> Yes, well if we had better ones it would be clear they should be given more responsibility.
23:05 < rxr> cchamilt: maybe also split the patch into multiple mails - so I can apply trival changes / additions with a few key-strokes
23:05 < cchamilt> I am not just talking about commitment or programmin skills.
23:05 < cchamilt> OK.
23:06 < cchamilt> I really need to rewrite heimdal's whole autoconf system, but what I have works for now.
23:07 < rxr> did you mean better ROCK Linux developers - or better OpenSource project programmers in general?
23:07 < cchamilt> The latter.
23:07 < rxr> btw the GNU auto* stuff is that ugly and borked that it is no wonder that most packages have so ugly auto* crap
23:08 < rxr> the next-generation GSMP will not use and GNU auto* dung - but selfwritten shell-scripts
23:08 < rxr> the last time the auto* stuff took more time then writing 1/2 of the whole GUI ...
23:08 < cchamilt> We (ROCK devs) know enough to do what we do well, we just fall into project traps and stuff.
23:09 < rxr> jups
23:09 < cchamilt> Yes, autoconf doesnt fit every project.
23:09 < rxr> ok - me off into bed in a few seconds
23:09 < rxr> == 22:43:46 =[5]=> Building x11/xfree86 [4.3.99.15 2.0.0-rc4].
23:09 < cchamilt> OK cyu
23:09 < netrunner> n8 rxr et al
23:09 < rxr> I hope it finishes with SVN:HEAD
23:10 < cchamilt> heh
23:10 < cchamilt> we'll find out tomorrow I guess.
23:11 < cchamilt> Man web based P2P is cool.
23:12 < rxr> bitorret or what?
23:12 < cchamilt> I dont have to keep clients up or anything.  
23:12 < cchamilt> zuul frontend for mldonkey
23:13 < cchamilt> php scripts.  not 100%, but it works well.
23:13 < netrunner> cchamilt: mldonkey has its own web interface. and it works.
23:14 < cchamilt> Yes, but zuul is small, clean, php, and internationalized.
23:14 < cchamilt> I understand php well.
23:15 < vegai> I'd rather see a p2p-based web =)
23:16 < cchamilt> Who knows if the 'webos' stuff will ever happen.
23:17 < rxr> I need new and more RAM
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23:17 < rxr> when xfree86 is finished SVN:HEAD shoudl have pretty few build errors
23:18 < cchamilt> It has been building well for my targets.
23:18 < cchamilt> Most package bugs I saw got fixed last week.
23:20 < cchamilt> bzflag is about the only thing my pvr has problems with I can think of ;).  It is not installing its datadir.
23:20 < rxr> what is the key-stroke to kill a hanging window in screen?
23:20 < cchamilt> Wish I could get libGL working on the epia, for now only 2d games.
23:21 < cchamilt> no idea
23:21 < cchamilt> C-a C-k
23:23 < rxr> jups - found it too - thanks
23:23 < cchamilt> man is great
23:23 < rxr> damn tiny problems happening when you just want to get into bed ...
23:23 < rxr> jups - but C-A ? sucks ...
23:24 < cchamilt> yes, kterm doesnt let them go through.
23:24 < cchamilt> or konsole, damn dont know what software i use.
23:25 < rxr> hehe - I also once kalled it kterm
23:25 < rxr> although I prefer konsole I'm currently in a xterm
23:25 < cytrinox`> gn8
23:26 < cchamilt> n8 cytrinox
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23:27 < cchamilt> i wish it would just resize terminals right, other than that i like konsole alot.
23:30 < rxr> n8 all - cu tomorrow
23:31 < rxr> daja77: please do not yet build a -rc3 - I think I pull all of HEAD into it - so many fixes - and then I do the rocknet / rockplug stuff for -rc4 ...
23:31 < cchamilt> cu
23:32 < th> n8 rxr 
23:33 < rxr> damn slow rs6k .... still crunching on the -rc2 PowerPC:
23:33 < rxr> 752 builds total, 519 completed fine, 10 with errors.
23:33  * rxr now finally off hehehe
--- Log closed Don Nov 20 00:00:32 2003