--- Log opened Son Nov 23 00:00:04 2003
--- Day changed Son Nov 23 2003
00:00 < daja77> that guy pointed out that dnsdomainname tools is missig too, must have missed some build errors d'oh
00:00 < daja77> tool
00:00 < daja77> *sigh*
00:00 < rxr> they can be all auto-detected by the rockplug PCI code - if you have PCI USB chips they will be laoded if availab.e -DOT-
00:00 < daja77> ok will be fine for me as long as that errors vanish
00:01 < rxr> yes - they vanish in -rc4
00:01 < daja77> btw he also reported trouble with usb mouse, d'oh
00:01 < daja77> ok
00:01 < MadTux> mm.. good mourning daja77
00:01  * daja77 grins
00:01 < MadTux> :D
00:02 < daja77> just wanted to reply to all this *sigh*
00:02 < MadTux> yeah yeah..
00:02 < daja77> ping pong mailing is fun
00:02 < MadTux> ;-)
00:03 < cytrinox`> gn8
00:03 < daja77> hmm seems he is off to bed now ^^
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00:07 < daja77> ah nice follow up error: missing ifconfig breaks dhclient ...
00:07 < rxr> jups - dhclient uses ifconfig
00:08  * mnemoc hates that
00:08 < rxr> maybe we should convert this dhclient script use iproute2
00:08 < mnemoc> iproute2-ahu includes a rewritten dhclient-script
00:09 < rxr> ahu - what?
00:09 < mnemoc> BUT it does't use iproute2, it uses ifconfig too
00:09 < daja77> :(
00:10 < mnemoc> -ahu is one of the developers of iproute2 and he keep coding it a little further
00:10 < rxr> aha ...
00:11 < mnemoc> he translate official dhclient-script into one using functions =)
00:11 < mnemoc> and stops there
00:12 < mnemoc> is't too hard to migrate THAT script to iproute2
00:12 < rxr> too hard - or _not_ too hard?
00:12 < mnemoc> not =)
00:13 < mnemoc> i was updating iproute2 pkg to -ahu but i got out of time :(
00:14 < mnemoc> are all iproute developers dead? =\
00:15 < rxr> mnemoc: I do not know - but it looks like this ...
00:18 < daja77> ah errlist of rc2 build reveals it
00:18 < daja77>  [5] clifford/bacterium                  [5] base/xfsprogs
00:18 < daja77>  [5] base/net-tools                      [5] base/dump
00:18 < daja77> net-tools is the relevant package
00:19 < mnemoc> i thought i had sent patches for xfsprogs and dump.... mmm
00:20 < rxr> mnemoc: yes all in - all fixed
00:20 < rxr> mnemoc: but daja77 talks about an old -rc2 build
00:20 < daja77> well as i said this is rc2 errlog
00:20 < daja77> yep
00:21 < mnemoc> i had not updated my rock tree in almost two weeks ;)
00:21  * mnemoc is outdated
00:21 < MadTux> daja77: hehehe you truely have a sensitive sleep
00:21 < MadTux> hi mnemoc
00:21 < mnemoc> hi RoastedTux
00:22  * daja77 having the reporting guy on the phone atm
00:22 < mnemoc> rxr: i'm waiting you idea about where iproute2 ppl is
00:24 < rxr> mnemoc: as I said - I suppored your idea they are all dead
00:24 < rxr> mnemoc: maybe writee all of them an mail asking what the current maintain status is
00:25 < mnemoc>  maybe richard gooch is with them =)
00:29 < mnemoc> btw, lartc.org is alive, lartc.org is at ds9a.nl and -ahu is @ds9a.nl so he is 'reachable'
00:31 < mnemoc> rxr: you, as a lkml reader, know something about current devfs state?
00:32 < rxr> I have not followed it much in the last weeks or two months or so
00:33 < rxr> but the state is what Clifford wrote about on rock-linux in reply to your mail ...
00:33 < rxr> Richard Gooch just fanished because all the people pissed him all the time
00:33 < rxr> it is no wonder that he lost fun to work on devfs ...
00:34 < mnemoc> :(... /me loves devfs
00:34 < rxr> but my personal state is that if noone will I'll continue to maintain devfs stuff - since it is what I want and need - FULLSTOP -
00:34 < mnemoc> full ack
00:35 < mnemoc> brb
00:35 < rxr> cu all later
00:35 < rxr> n8
00:35 < daja77> bye rxr
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00:39 < pieass> wb owl
00:39 < daja77> ??
00:39 < pieass> sorry
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00:44 < MadTux> owl?
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00:46 < pieass> she gets netsplitted all the time, sorry.
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00:57 < daja77> ok /me now finally off to bed
00:57 < daja77> cu
00:58 < pieass> gn8
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00:59 < pieass> this netsplitting bothers me
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02:17 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1064 completed fine, 18 with errors.
02:21 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1072 completed fine, 18 with errors.
02:21 < rxr> n8
02:26 < pieass> gn8
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04:07 < mnemoc> *yawn*
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09:19 < netrunner> moin
10:00 -!- scoopex [~marc@td9091b05.adsl.terralink.de] has joined #rocklinux
10:14 < blindcoder> moin moin
11:02 < daja77> moin blindy
11:05 < blindcoder> moin daja
11:07  * blindcoder now has his first two encrypted LVP DVDs :)
11:09 < daja77> ^^
11:11 < blindcoder> now I'm going to write some more and then start reimplementing the scripts
11:12 < daja77> ok
11:18 < rxr> re
11:18 < rxr> moin
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11:19 < blindcoder> moin rxr
11:20 < daja77> hi rxr
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11:40 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1338 completed fine, 24 with errors.
11:42 < rxr> some of the 24 errors can easily be fixed
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12:00 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1354 completed fine, 24 with errors.
12:27 < fake> re
12:27 < daja77> hi fake!
12:27 < blindcoder> moin fake 
12:28  * fake fixing his links on apollo
12:28 < blindcoder> fake: which ones don't work?
12:29 < fake> blindcoder: the missing '/' thing after directories now leads to bchat.net - but nevermind, i just fixed my script to add that slash to directory links
12:29 < fake> (apollo has become slower...)
12:30 < blindcoder> fake: the speed issue will be resolved once we have a second 80GB disc and a RAID Controller
12:31 < fake> ah
12:31 < fake> <- doesn't need a fast machine, but a reliable one ;)
12:32 < blindcoder> well, fast would be a nice bonus to reliable :)
12:34 < daja77> reliable on intel hw, hmmm
12:34 < blindcoder> daja77: why not?
12:34 < blindcoder> old apollo on intel hw had almost 2 years uptime
12:34 < blindcoder> until we decided to upgrade the hardware
12:35 < daja77> let's put this way i do not trust my hw ^^
12:36 < blindcoder> you have to trust someone
12:37 < daja77> i trust the replicated afs servers at university ^^
12:39  * daja77 off for breakfast
12:40 < blindcoder> so you trust the software. As a programmer, I don't really trust software
12:40 < blindcoder> that's why I usually like to code the things I need myself
12:40 < blindcoder> (as far as my knowledge suffices)
12:40 < netrunner> blindcoder: and you made bad experience with your sw, so you do not trust in sw?
12:40 < daja77> well they lost one big server a week ago, they had all the data back online 3h later, due fast backups
12:40 < blindcoder> netrunner: yes, indeed
12:41 < blindcoder> netrunner: and I'm not talking Windows here
12:41  * netrunner playing with his 9210
12:41 < blindcoder> daja77: sounds much like coda to me. except with the coda concept htere wouldn't have been any outage
12:41 < blindcoder> (given it was set up correctly)
12:42 < daja77> well openafs is maintained sw instead of coda
12:42 < daja77> it takes some time to read data from tape ^^
12:42 < blindcoder> I haven't followed the networked file systems for a while now
12:43  * daja77 'll try to package openafs later that day
12:49 < rxr> re
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12:59 < rxr> hi Christian___ 
12:59 < Christian___> hi rxr
12:59 < Christian___> whats up? ;)
13:00 < Christian___> how is it going on with the graphical installation tool for rock?
13:02 < rxr> ;-) This one is not yet started - it is planned for the next year
13:02 < rxr> currently the pre-2.0.0 polishing phase is still running ...
13:03 < Christian___> I have read about the renaming of the whole ROCK-Linux project. Are there any countable decisions made up to this day?
13:05 < rxr> I think no final decision yet - but I think we will definetly keep ROCK in the name ...
13:06 < Christian___> yeah keeping rock in the name is important i think
13:07 < Christian___> brb 5 minutes
13:08 < Christian___> re
13:10 < Christian___> rxr: the graphical installation tool will be written in? bash i guess
13:10 < rxr> nope
13:10 < rxr> it will use the technology I'll develop for GSMP (gsmp.tfh-berlin.de/gsmp)
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13:11 < rxr> some Cavas framweork - probably based on Evas (www.enlightenment.org
13:11 < rxr> )
13:12 < rxr> and will use the current STONE modules - just with graphical fluff arround ...
13:12 < Christian___> interesting
13:12 < rxr> the next generation GSMP GUI will look like a mixture of Blender and Ableton Live (the later is not OpenSource)
13:13 < rxr> but we are not just cloning them - I have this ideas already for 1 1/2 years now, just not the time to implement them
13:13 < daja77> speaking of next year, the split package feature isn't implementated yet, right?
13:13 < rxr> daja77: nope - we already did much in 2.0 - maybe too much (?)
13:14 < daja77> dunno
13:14 < daja77> just think that one huge openafs package is sort of ugly, but will do for a while i guess
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13:15 < rxr> what does the package include that makes a split worth?
13:15 -!- Chrissi is now known as ChristianQt
13:18 < daja77> server and client part e.g. you don't need the server part on all the clients
13:19 < daja77> perhaps we don't have to split up that much like fedora does
13:19 < daja77> http://www.openafs.org/pages/release/openafs-1.2.10a.html#fedora-1.0
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13:54 < th> re
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14:05 < pieass> re
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14:17 < alex> Can I use pkgsrc with rock linux OR can I change the directory layout completely without changing all the scripts for building packages?
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14:28 < alex> Are you trying to say me "do not reinvent the wheel"?
14:29 < alex> But shit happens anyway - pkgsrc is cool and it makes linux and NetBSD to shine.
14:30 < alex> Anyway, one always needs to have software he or she wants on his or her machine, so ...
14:31 < blindcoder> what is pkgsrc?
14:31 < A-Tui> blindcoder: similar to rock 1.6
14:31 < blindcoder> A-Tui: hmm
14:32 < A-Tui> yo write ports for apps and the use some tools to compile them
14:32 < alex> pkgsrc is like ports, but for NetBSD
14:32 < alex> http://www.netbsd.org/Documentation/software/packages.html
14:32 < blindcoder> alex: personally, I'm quite sure that it won't work without some kind of rock2pkgsrc converter
14:33 < alex> That is a shit, since I really don't have time now (too much classes) to port it!
14:33 < alex> Howeve, pkgsrc was ported to other linux distros
14:33 < blindcoder> alex: well, that's bad.
14:33 < alex> So, ...
14:33 < blindcoder> no. no. and no.
14:33 < alex> What? It IS ported
14:33 < alex> to linux
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14:34 < blindcoder> I know what you're going to ask and I say no.
14:35 < alex> What did I wanna ask... ;)
14:35 < alex> ?
14:35 < blindcoder> "Could you write one?"
14:36 < alex> No, I don't 
14:36 < alex> :P
14:36 < alex> I wanted to ask the other thing though
14:36 < alex> I noticed that the directory layout in ROCK Linux is kinda different 
14:37 < alex> ...from one specified in linux fs hierarchy standard
14:37 < alex> right.
14:38 < alex> Can I make it lfs compliant?
14:38 < alex> I think that the base sub-distro is ok
14:38 < blindcoder> hmm... we had some problems trying to be FHS comform lately
14:38 < blindcoder> you should discuss this with rxr
14:39 < blindcoder> base sub-distro?
14:39 < blindcoder> you mean generic?
14:39 < alex> yeah, but base or generic - these are just words for the same idea
14:39 < alex> ;)
14:40 < blindcoder> well, base is more associated with the package/base repository, while generic is the target/generic build target
14:40 < alex> oh...
14:40 < alex> OK, sorry for incorrect use of the terms
14:41 < alex> Could I install the generic distro first, and then use pkgsrc on top of it
14:41 < blindcoder> I see no problems with that, although I don't know how/if pkgsrc does dependency checking
14:41 < alex> Since, pkgsrc would work with fhs compliant system, I believe
14:41 < alex> It does it very good.
14:42 < alex> blindcoder, I recommend you to consider it, since it IS *really* good.
14:42 < blindcoder> well, rpm does dependency checking by checking if the corresponding rpm packages are installed
14:42 < alex> blindcoder, I use it on NetBSD and had a little experience on slackware.
14:42 -!- _KonvIRC is now known as ChristianQt
14:42 < alex> It is source based
14:42 < blindcoder> if pkgsrc is doing it in a similiar way, you'll run into trouble
14:42 < daja77> i don't see any pkgsrc advantage over rocklinux build system
14:43 < A-Tui> i think like daja77
14:43 < alex> daja77, really?
14:43 < blindcoder> well, I'm quite fond with ROCK's package management tools
14:43 < daja77> yes
14:43 < alex> daja77, ok. I've not used your system yet (but may use it probably :)
14:44 < daja77> :)
14:44 < alex> daja77, is it like a directory structure, is it correct?
14:44 < alex> I mean the package system in rock?
14:44 < alex> where I should change to the appropriate dir and execute a bash script?
14:45 < alex> or is it more like portage, where you just execute portage <packagename>?
14:46 < blindcoder> alex: in the easiest way, a ROCK package just consists of a file specifying where to download the source and some additional information
14:46 < daja77> guess you'd like to read the handbook http://www.rocklinux-consulting.de/products/rock-handbook/html/rock-handbook.html
14:46 < alex> All the docs I have seen by the moment only tell about creating rock, not the packageing system itself
14:46 < alex> daja77, which chapter?
14:46 < alex> there's nothing about the system itself in ch19
14:46 < blindcoder> alex: if that isn't sufficient, you'll have to add a .conf file which is a bash-script telling ROCK how to build the package
14:46 < alex> only about packages
14:47 < blindcoder> well... the "system" would be scipts/Build-Pkg
14:47 < alex> oh, I think I know what you mean.
14:48 < alex> Just one question: why is it a little bit "raw", e.g. I basically have to take so much care about building package?
14:48 < alex> (I am not afraid of it, just asking)
14:49 < blindcoder> alex: well, of course you have to take care. Compiling a package isn't as easy a walking the dog
14:49 < daja77> to get the builds easily automated
14:49 < alex> Well, they may be more automated, like in pkgsrc
14:50 < alex> Of course, it means more work for developers, but what the developers are for?
14:50 < daja77> pkgsrc isn't that automated
14:50 < alex> come on
14:50 < blindcoder> Build-Pkg already automates most of the packages including applying patches et al
14:50 < daja77> developers are a rare ressource, what are computers for?
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14:51 < daja77> Build-Pkg can detect the build system of most of the packages as well
14:51 < alex> I occasionally have to correct something in the build. There are virtually no packages in pkgsrc that would not compile.
14:51 -!- ChristianQt [~konversat@pD9E39A0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
14:51 < blindcoder> well, less than 1% of the packages in ROCK fail atm. that's also virtually none :)
14:52 < alex> daja77, The biggest problem I have with rock is its directory layout.
14:52 < blindcoder> the layout in package/ ?
14:52 < alex> About packages... well, but how much work I would have to do to make it finally build?
14:53 < alex> e.g. in NetBSD I only do make install, and generally I get a built package
14:53 < blindcoder> rxr is currently runig a reference build and said that most of them are trivial to fix
14:53 < alex> btw, what about stability?
14:53 < alex> blindcoder, "packages/"?
14:54 < rxr> re
14:54 < blindcoder> alex: ehm... what directory layout are you talking about?
14:54 < alex> blindcoder, layout of the dirs in the rock linus
14:54 < blindcoder> alex: have you even had a look at the ROCK sources?
14:54 < alex> linux
14:54  * daja77 wondering what the heck alex is talking about
14:55 < alex> I would, if I an 100% sure I want it. I am 80% sure if I want it
14:55 < rxr> alex: what exactly is the problem?
14:55 < alex> fhs compliance
14:56 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1427 completed fine, 24 with errors.
14:56 < alex> rxr, I mean, how difficult is it to change the directory layout, or use pkgsrc, or add others packages (in /usr/local)
14:56 < alex> oh
14:56 < rxr> oeh - we should be conforming to the fhs
14:57 < alex> what about the rest 2070-1427-24?
14:57 < daja77> except for /etc/sysconfig crap
14:57 < alex> and /opt ?
14:57 < rxr> alex: still building
14:57 < rxr> alex: what /opt ????
14:57 < rxr> alex: you need to be exact if you want to get answers
14:57 < alex> Who puts gnome in /opt?
14:57 < alex> e.g. why?
14:58 < rxr> alex: you can change this in the Config
14:58 < rxr> I want this because I do not want to have a big mess in /usr
14:58 < alex> Ok, give me a couple of minutes...
14:58 < rxr> and this is completely fine with the FHS ...
14:58 < alex> I love stability, and I have read that Rock Linux generic installation is rock solid. \
14:59 < alex> I also love building from source. \
14:59 < alex> I had experience with other sourc-based linuxes (Gentoo, Sorcerer, and Onebase) \
15:00 < alex> However, they were crap, because the weren't reliable, many packages are broken, etc. \
15:01 < alex> Now I use NetBSD, and love it, especially pkgsrc - source based package system \
15:01 < alex> NetBSD is also very consistent, stable, logical, etc. \
15:02 < alex> I want to have a Linux machine using pkgsrc, and being stable.
15:02 < ChristianQt> alex: are you using the "\" like C in its #define defineme idefineyou thing? ;) 
15:02 < alex> bash 
15:03 < alex> So, I think that rock would help me.
15:04 < alex> The only thing that bothers me, is that in the binary distro on CDs (camp, desktop) the directory layout was kinda weird for a lhs compliant linux system.
15:04 < daja77> can you be more precise on the stuff you are telling us
15:04 < alex> So, my question is: Is it possible to use pkgsrc (and thus different directory layout) with rock?
15:05 < blindcoder> alex: okay, so you think some stuff is strange/wrong. which stuff is this that can't be configured?
15:05 < blindcoder> alex: well, in theory it's possible. Noone has tried yet I think.
15:05 < alex> The other question: How difficult is it to build a source packages not from base?
15:06 < daja77> you could start up a minimal rock and use pkgsrc on top of it, makes not much sense imo but should work
15:06 < alex> daja77, why doesn't it make much sense?
15:06 < daja77> scripts/Build-Pkg and scripts/Emerger-Pkg are easy to handle
15:07 < daja77> because you have a good build system with rock, why using a second
15:07 < daja77> + you can put packages not in tree into package management via mkpkg wrapper
15:07 < alex> daja77, Ok, but I found for myself that I need some packages that are not there.
15:08 < alex> hmm, sounds interesting...
15:08 < daja77> well, then you can easily create them or use that wrapper
15:08 < blindcoder> misc/archive/newpackage.sh and mkpkg are your friends :)
15:08 < alex> Ok.
15:08 < blindcoder> like I said, you should have a look at it directly beore asking questions ;)
15:10 < alex> I think I'll do look at it more closely at this point.
15:10 < alex> looks like I'll be able to do my own version of knoppix :)
15:11 < alex> Thank you for help. :) :) :)
15:13 < alex> NetBSD + ROCK rocks :)
15:13 < daja77> :)
15:13 < daja77> hmm i can't find the newpackage.sh
15:14 < blindcoder> daja77: should be in misc/archive but with -x IIRC
15:14 < daja77> the is only catedit.sh in misc/archive
15:14 < daja77> there
15:17 < blindcoder> hrm strange
15:21 < daja77> anyway I don't need it to create a new package ^^
15:21 < blindcoder> hehe :)
15:22  * blindcoder --> bath
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15:25 < netrunner> blindcoder: thanks a lot ;)
15:25 < daja77> O_o
15:31 < rxr> re
15:33 < daja77> rxr: do you mind if a send a patch which adds IBM Open License to our keyword list?
15:34 < rxr> jups send it...
15:34 < daja77> ok
15:43 < daja77> i'll send it when i have the package patch ready
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16:41  * daja77 curses a bit
16:55 < daja77> damn openafs produces shared files conflict with e2fsprogs, how should i handle that
17:00 < daja77> ok found sth, will see if that works
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17:21 < daja77> anybody here who has experience with sucking shared files conflicts?
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18:30 < rxr> cu
18:30 < nookie> bye rxr 
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18:32 < daja77> O_o
18:32 < daja77> cu later
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19:33 < tcr> moin all
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20:28 -!- Topic for #rocklinux: ROCK Linux approaching 2.0 - join now - http://www.rocklinux.org/rock20.html
20:28 -!- Topic set by ChanServ [] [Tue Sep  2 15:34:51 2003]
20:28 [Users #rocklinux]
20:28 [ [anders]  ] [ ChristianQt] [ fake       ] [ netrunne1] [ rxr    ] [ true ] 
20:28 [ _spectre_ ] [ clifford   ] [ hannes     ] [ netrunner] [ scoopex] [ vegai] 
20:28 [ Aard      ] [ cytrinox`- ] [ kasc_      ] [ nookie   ] [ SMP    ] 
20:28 [ aszlig    ] [ daja77     ] [ mistik1    ] [ owl|KKH_ ] [ snyke  ] 
20:28 [ blindcoder] [ elon_      ] [ mnemoc     ] [ praenti  ] [ tcr    ] 
20:28 [ cchamilt  ] [ esden      ] [ Nebukadneza] [ rolla    ] [ th     ] 
20:28 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 32 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 32 normal]
20:28 -!- Channel #rocklinux created Sun Aug  3 22:11:35 2003
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21:33 < daja77> re
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23:21 < netrunne1> hi daja77 ;)
23:21 < netrunne1> what a delay
23:21 -!- You're now known as netrunner
23:21 < daja77> hehe
23:21 < daja77> can you help me with that stuff
23:25 < netrunner> renaming?
23:25  * netrunner is busy writing pages over pages for esden
23:28 < daja77> i used that method described in that rolling rock article but it didn't work
23:33 < daja77> anyway will see tomorrow or later
23:37 < netrunner> daja77: sorry, can't help you now :(
23:39 < daja77> np
23:39 < rxr> re
23:40 < rxr> 2070 builds total, 1593 completed fine, 27 with errors.
23:40 < rxr> ^- hm some trival error fixing party tomorrow ...
23:50 < cytrinox`-> gn8
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23:53 < rxr> n8 cytrinox`- 
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