--- Log opened Thu Dec 25 00:00:46 2003
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09:35 < netrunner> daja77: 3-perl locked my build server 6am ...
09:55 < netrunner> daja77: is that the same package that locked up at yours?
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11:10 < cytrinox`-> moin
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12:08 < daja77> netrunner: nope
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13:52 < daja77> hi cap
13:52 < capchaos> Hey, daja
13:52 < daja77> :)
13:54 < capchaos> Vsjo f'parjadki u tibje? :>
13:54 < daja77> yep everything is fine
13:54 < daja77> and how are you?
13:55 < capchaos> Couldn't be better, thanks, only time lacks (school)
13:56 < daja77> will you be at 20c3?
13:56 < capchaos> No..
13:56 < daja77> :(
13:59 * daja77 still fighting with linux26
14:01 < capchaos> "2.6 is still a bitch" (i.e. with the binary only ISDN setup..)
14:02 < daja77> here it reboots the laptop instead of booting it
14:03 < capchaos> Why that?
14:03 < daja77> i have no idea
14:03 < daja77> threw out acpi this time, will see if that's the reason
14:12 * capchaos can't wait to get fscking ISDN to work
14:13 < capchaos> daja77, any idea as of when 2.6 will be the official stable kernel of ROCK?
14:23 < daja77> dunno, maybe we talk about that on 20c3
14:24 < capchaos> Ah, ok.. c u
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14:39 < SMP> 2.6 stable kernel? maybe in summer ...
14:40 < daja77> ;-)
14:40 < daja77> btw it works without acpi
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16:42 < blindcoder> moin moin
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17:46 < mnemoc> moin happy people :)
17:50 < blindcoder> moin mnemoc 
17:50 < mnemoc> moin blindcoder 
17:51 * blindcoder is happy about his blinkenLEDs ^^
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17:54 < mnemoc> is it complete now?
17:55 < blindcoder> yep :)
17:55 < blindcoder> and the curses-gui also works
17:56 < mnemoc> what kind of 'blinks' do you send to your 8x18 display?
17:57 < blindcoder> www.blinkenlights.de <-- those :)
18:26 < rxr> re
18:26 < blindcoder> moin rxr
18:27 < blindcoder> what's the status of the 20C3 Registration? I don't have mail-access right now...
18:29 < mnemoc> re 
18:29 < mnemoc> blindcoder: pretty cool :)
18:33 < blindcoder> thanks, I hope to make some photos on 20C3
18:51 < asshole|Universe> moin
18:54 < blindcoder> moin moin
18:54 < asshole|Universe> http://koepi.squat.net/ << someone can access this?
18:55 < blindcoder> jup
18:57 < asshole|Universe> shit. thx.
18:57 < asshole|Universe> could you please tell me a dns-server, which you use, blindy?
18:57 < blindcoder> ns1.bingo-ev.de
18:58 < asshole|Universe> thx
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19:35 < netrunne1> re
19:35 -!- netrunne1 is now known as netrunner
19:36 < netrunner> Error logs from athlon_mp_desktop-2.0.0-rc4-x86-athlon-mp-32-desktop-expert: 844 builds total, 396 completed fine, 3 with errors. (still building)
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19:39 < A-Tui> hi
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20:35 < netrunner> hm, I guess the lockup problem is somewhere else. just had a freeze while building libgnomeprint.
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21:11 < mnemoc> netrunner: building rock is a *very* exhausitve task... maybe your 'host linux' is not as 'fresh' as it has to be for building a rock
21:17 < netrunner> mnemoc: andreas@builder:~/temp$ cat /etc/ROCK-VERSION -> ROCK Linux 2.0.0-rc2 (2003/10/01)
21:34 < maze_fan> hi hi and rehi
21:39 < mnemoc> maze_fan@ccc?
21:42 < maze_fan> not yet
21:42 < mnemoc> "see you at 20C3" <-- didn't starts on 27?
21:42 < maze_fan> 26, tomorrow
21:42 < praenti> hi
21:43 < maze_fan> praenti is staying overnight here and we'll leave early tomorrow
21:43 < mnemoc> hi mr. angel
21:44 < praenti> netrunner: still here?
21:44 < praenti> btw. have anybody some music on 20C3?
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21:45 < praenti> and some boxes?
21:45 < praenti> hi tcr
21:45 < tcr> moin all
21:45 < tcr> moin praenti
21:46 < praenti> tcr: are you at the 20C3?
21:46 < tcr> No, sorry, won't come
21:46 < mnemoc> there is any written plan of what will you do/show there?
21:47 < praenti> mnemoc: yes. clifford will do two talks. one about rocklinux and one about his brainfuck cpu
21:47 < praenti> and he is morderating a game
21:48 < praenti> s/morderating/moderating
21:48 < praenti> and we brainstorm for a new name :-)
22:02 < mnemoc> can you *try* to write a roadmap for rock?
22:03 < maze_fan> mkdate(random): release of ROCK 2.0.0-final
22:04 < maze_fan> mkdate(random)+delay(random): feature freeze for ROCK 2.0
22:04 < mnemoc> can't be after febrary'04
22:04 < maze_fan> why
22:04 < mnemoc> three year from last stable is too much
22:05 < mnemoc> two year and _some_ days is not tahta bad ,9
22:05 < mnemoc> ;)
22:18 * maze_fan --> bed
22:18 < maze_fan> baba
22:18 < mnemoc> n8 maze_fan 
22:43 < netrunner> praenti: ja
22:53 < cchamilt> rehi
22:54 < mnemoc> hi cchamilt 
22:54 < cchamilt> i have been trying to come up with a new name for rock.  everything in top domains is taken.
22:56 < mnemoc> openrock too?
22:56 < cchamilt> well, that isnt a name change.  I was looking through things similar to the morphous type names.
22:57 < cchamilt> basically anything i could come up with that meant change or combination in english with a ix or os suffix.
22:58 < cchamilt> morphos is a real os, so we shouldnt use anything morph probably.
22:59 < cchamilt> oh, just check openrock is gone.
22:59 < mnemoc> wtf? who's the bastard?
23:00 < cchamilt> well rock is not just a linux.
23:00 < mnemoc> :(
23:00 < cchamilt> it could mean anything really.  Open music, etc.
23:01 < cchamilt> It should be so simple.
23:02 < cchamilt> What we are is a system to make unix-like oses with many ways/features/capabilities.
23:05 < cchamilt> In my opinion. it is a trade off of picking a name that means exactly what we are, or something unique and catchy (ie. made up) that we can brand to mean us.
23:06 < cchamilt> To pick a name that means what we are, it will have to be a hybrid (new) name made from recognizable words that contain the meaning.
23:07 < cchamilt> In my opinion, ROCK anything fails to have any marketing capability except to people with have already reached.
23:07 < cchamilt> So it is quite limited in value.
23:08 < cchamilt> If it had tradition, years of recognition (ie. fighting it out with the big names in linux), then it would be worthwhile.  ROCK is still a little stain on the linux map.
23:09 < tcr> I agree. But why do you care so vigorously?
23:09 < cchamilt> ie. Gentoo is a stupid horrible name.  But it works because it has been marketed well.  The name itself carries no information, nor is it catchy other than the strangenous of the word to most people.
23:09 < mnemoc> ambigix.org =\
23:10 < cchamilt> Hey, if I had any usable names that rock could use, I would give them.
23:10 < mnemoc> i think we need to keep the core of our name and improve PR
23:10 < cchamilt> Well, we could START pr.  That really would help.
23:11 < cchamilt> Showing up with booths in germany, etc. in places where only fellow geeks go does help increase our current user base.
23:11 < mnemoc> any newbie that subscribe to rlml will run away in the first ... three? days 
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23:12 < cchamilt> Our current user base is not where the money, capability, nor recognition is.
23:13 < mnemoc> we can't just 'jump to the money'
23:13 < cchamilt> If we want to eat ROCK (ie. live off it), we have to reach corporations and universities interested in rolling their own os.  Embedded and appliance companies looking for control.
23:13 < tcr> cchamilt, I don't think there's a big market for rock anyway
23:14 < mnemoc> improving package management will open our market
23:14 < cchamilt> Its a market, it may be small.  The important thing is to identify it and exploit it
23:14 < cchamilt> The market can only grow if someone services it.
23:15 < mnemoc> there is a chilean company that sells bug-chocolates to europe :\
23:15 < cchamilt> The point is to find disatisfied consumers, and convince them we can make them happy.  Then others that don't need, but might like the service come to us too.
23:16 < cchamilt> I really don't know if rock has the philosophical backbone to do this as a community.  It would be nice though.
23:17 < cchamilt> Most of us just do whatever, and rock just happens to be the whatever every now and then.
23:17 < tcr> I'd like to see the technical backbone first
23:17 < cchamilt> :)
23:17 < cchamilt> Me too.
23:17 < mnemoc> :(
23:18 < cchamilt> Though, that is one great thing about selling stuff.  It doesn't have to be the best.
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23:18 < cchamilt> It can still succeed on unfullfilled promises.
23:19 < cchamilt> We will need project managment for anything though.
23:19 < mnemoc> ehm... we need managment :(
23:19 < cchamilt> And no matter what are technical skill level, we have zero managment.
23:20 < cchamilt> We cant force each other to produce the code we need.  There is no intrinsic personal motives to do what other rock people want you to do.
23:20 < tcr> I don't know any FLOSS project who has
23:20 < tcr> That may very well be because I don't spend attention to that, though :)
23:21 < mnemoc> [TROLL] managment, name, PR and market... ROCK's roadmap
23:21 < mnemoc> a good subject for a mail ;)
23:21 < cchamilt> Well, we are missing much of what draws results from other floss projects.
23:22 < tcr> IMHO, crappy things need proactive management, good things sustain per itself
23:22 < cchamilt> We are not cool.  We are the equivalent of OS secretaries.
23:22 < tcr> whatever OS stands for
23:22 < cchamilt> We want to organize tasks for the production of a tool that admins use.
23:23 < cchamilt> operating system
23:24 < cchamilt> We are the little trolls that could make life much nicer for admins.  Admins, which, most other people consider the little trolls that could make their computers nicer.
23:25 < cchamilt> Hard to be motivated unless you are an admin or want to service/sell to admins.
23:25 < cchamilt> Most of our admin like people are no longer active in rock.
23:25 < mnemoc> i have a design for a central managment tool (forge) (update, schedule tasks, monitor) and for a client (dwarf) like apt-get
23:26 < tcr> Actually I came to rock to stop being required to admin
23:26 < cchamilt> tcr:Did it work?
23:26 * mnemoc away
23:27 < tcr> No, because it isn't yet at its end
23:27 < cchamilt> Admittedly, I have several systems I havent touched in years running rock well.   However, they do need cleaned up and updated.
23:27 < cchamilt> Yes, well that is part of our problem.
23:27 < cchamilt> ROCK is the result of minds being sidetracked.
23:28 < mnemoc> currently we are something a little more managed that LFS
23:28 < cchamilt> While all of us were trying to accomplish a task, we became infatuated with fixing the process for that task.
23:29 < cchamilt> And LFS might start kicking our ass in usability soon.
23:29 < tcr> Heh
23:29 * tcr brb
23:30 < cchamilt> The problem is that we (a rather abusive inclusion of ROCK people) cannot manage well.  We can not evaluate the value of our work output.  Or else we would not be here.
23:30 < cchamilt> People who can or have learned, leave rock.
23:30 < cchamilt> Even clifford is going.
23:31 < cchamilt> We all want rock.  But to make rock viable, we will have to adjust our behaviors and motivations.
23:32 < cchamilt> We need short term and acheivable goals that produce usable/demonstratable output.  A release ANY RELEASE OF ANY THING would be a good start.
23:33 < cchamilt> Rock shit.0 would be better than nothing.
23:34 < tcr> Do you remember the broken windows parabel I told you sometime ago?
23:34 < cchamilt> yes
23:35 < cchamilt> which is worse, stopping to fix the window, bording up the window, or ignoring it.
23:35 < tcr> Well, now you know the reason why there ain't a release
23:35 < cchamilt> I want to board up the windows
23:36 < tcr> what's boarding up? there's no entry in my dict
23:36 < cchamilt> Placing plywood over the window (ie. too cheap to put new window in).
23:36 < tcr> I think its meaning is "to fix" but I'm interested in the picture you're drawing when using it 
23:37 < cchamilt> It is putting a temporary patch on in otherwords.
23:37 < cchamilt> Ignoring is bad, but boarding up is not so bad.  Fixing would be great, but we have no budget.
23:37 < tcr> The solution is to locate the room and restaurate it from scratch
23:38 < tcr> Boarding up may just mean a short time of delay
23:38 < cchamilt> Which is what we are doing to every room.  But we have one apprentice carpenter and only a few highschool dropouts.
23:39 < cchamilt> We have no budget.
23:39 < tcr> and it may be worse if one think the problem is fixed when it just got circumvenieted
23:39 < cchamilt> That is what a bug tracker is for.  That is what point versions are for...
23:40 < tcr> What's your point with "no budget"? There never were one, so why do you introduce or better invent this term?
23:41 < cchamilt> What I mean is that we cannot get better workers.
23:41 < cchamilt> It is more better to think of us as a working system.
23:41 < cchamilt> What we produce is rock, what we need to produce rock is the arbitrary developer unit.
23:42 < cchamilt> It takes so many developer units to complete a given development task.
23:42 < cchamilt> We are very short on developer units.  We have no budget.
23:42 < tcr> I find it condescending and insulting to speak as if the people around rock are just a pile of hopeless dilettants
23:43 < tcr> Sorry if I'm over-interpretatin you here
23:43 < cchamilt> However, a working and functional rock can produce more developer units.
23:44 < mnemoc> product -> newcomers -> new developers/users/admins -> feedback -> better product
23:44 < cchamilt> Well, it may be condensending.  But putting people into any model which well extrapulate their value is necessary to produce things like roadmaps.
23:44 < cchamilt> Roadmaps are just qualitative budgets.
23:45 < cchamilt> It isnt honest or nice, but to plan we must all assume a specific value.
23:48 < cchamilt> All I am saying, is that a bad rock now is probably better.  Better in the sense that we will produce a better rock faster than if we stuck with what we have and tried to produce a better rock later.
23:49 < cchamilt> It is how most economic ventures suceed.
23:50 < cchamilt> And whether we measure things in money or how cool rock is, the end result is still measurable and still an economic system.
23:50 < tcr> Methinks that user get very quickly frustrated if something doesn't want to work. And the problem is that this frustration is like branded in their minds, it's *very* difficult to get rid of it later on
23:50 < cchamilt> Not at all.
23:50 < cchamilt> Most people join rock to fix it.
23:51 * netrunner installed a kernel from the congress builds and hopes the lokups go away.
23:51 < netrunner> n8
23:51 < cchamilt> n8 netrunner
23:51 < tcr> Huh? You never got frustrated by some software?
23:51 < mnemoc> n8 netrunner 
23:51 < tcr> gn8 netrunner
23:52 < mnemoc> OT: what is a 'floss' project?
23:52 < tcr> mnemoc, FLOSS == Free/Libre OpenSource Software
23:52 < cchamilt> in fact, I would be evil enough to say that things we dont have the skills to fix should intentionally put it in the way of potential developers needing that.
23:52 < tcr> stands for all variants of free or opensource software
23:52 < mnemoc> The Wikipedia database server has crashed and might remain unavailable for several days. Contributors can use OpenFacts as a backup wiki for creating articles. There is an active IRC channel #wikipedia on irc.freenode.net.
23:53 < cchamilt> ie. putting in the stubs and making it appear to exist.
23:53 < cchamilt> But, that is a planning topic.  We have a more serious problem.  Getting our product and developmeny cycle moving.
23:54 < mnemoc> we can't do that without managment
23:55 < cchamilt> we can do management without a structured development group.
23:55 < tcr> Please define management... if I hear that term I always have to think of userfriendly and dilbert
23:55 < cchamilt> that is correct
23:56 < cchamilt> management is inefficient, ignorant, and prone to self serving behavior.
23:56 < mnemoc> o_O
23:56 < cchamilt> However, it can still succeed.
23:56 < cchamilt> And it tends to succeed more than unmanaged people.
23:57 < cchamilt> It doesn't have to be a pointy-haired person.  It could be a committee of developers, it could be one guy self-managing.
23:57 < mnemoc> i don't know any case of unmanaged succeed
23:58 < cchamilt> However, of the skills rock has, we have shown no organization or management skills.
23:59 < tcr> Hmm, I'm pointy-haired.. so I discharge
23:59 < cchamilt> Maybe we can get one if we release rock.  Maybe rock can be perverted to the interest and goals (and therefore management) of money.
23:59 < mnemoc> but we CAN trace some kind of roadman
23:59 < cchamilt> We need real, possible, and well defined goals.
--- Log closed Fri Dec 26 00:00:08 2003