--- Log opened Fri Dec 26 00:00:09 2003
--- Day changed Fri Dec 26 2003
00:00 < tcr> cchamilt, Didn't I send you my variant of a rock roadmap *long* time ago?
00:00 < mnemoc> tcr: can you mail it?
00:00 < cchamilt> The problem is that 'systemic' management (management by rules, statements, and written agreements) still need interpretation and day-to-day org,
00:01 < cchamilt> yes, tcr.
00:01 < cchamilt> possible and real are lacking in it. And you know it.
00:01 * A-Tui is away: paseando al chucho
00:02 < cchamilt> Making dreams into reality takes a lot of effort.  The roadmap defines and prioritizes the actual steps.
00:02 < cchamilt> It is a business plan of sorts.
00:02 < cchamilt> I agree with 90% of what you said, it just needs a roadmap to get us there.
00:04 < cchamilt> We need to know when we can redesign something and still keep a working development version.
00:05 < cchamilt> Its the crap where you have 2 apis, the new and the old.  When the new module has all new stuff connecting to it, then the old api can be tossed.
00:05 < cchamilt> This should be done by priority of what features rock users want and what can be accomplished by us.
00:07 < cchamilt> And the great thing is.  If we have a real plan and know what skills we are lacking and when we need them, we can ask them of the foss community.
00:09 * tcr had to laugh about your foss type, because he read "fuss community"
00:09 < tcr> s,type,typo,
00:10 < mnemoc> :)
00:11 < cchamilt> Well it is just that recruiting developers is a lot easier when we know what skills we need.
00:11 < cchamilt> Anyway, we need to convince rxr to release something/anything by the end of the month.
00:12 < cchamilt> Otherwise things will have to get messy and not so nice.
00:13 < cchamilt> That is one reason why I dont think a single person should be in charge, bad situations will reflect personally.
00:14 < cchamilt> If we develop a roadmap, it cannot currently count on 2.0 ever existing.  That is bad.  It needs to exist for us to move on and yet include it.
00:14 < mnemoc> 2.0 must e the start point
00:15 < cchamilt> or it wont be which is about the only other solution.  I must stress that I think 2.0 is really close and the work is good.
00:16 < cchamilt> I would be happy if rxr said this week or last week was 2.0, including bugs and unfinished stuff.
00:18 < mnemoc> last regtest is almost two month old
00:18 < mnemoc> gotta go
00:18 < cchamilt> It is clear that many things on rxr's todo list need reprioritized.  It is just that we need to consistently produce 2.0.? releases.
00:18 < mnemoc> cu cchamilt, tcr
00:18 < cchamilt> cu
00:19 < mnemoc> sure
00:19 < tcr> bye mnemoc
00:19 < tcr> wait
00:19 < daja77> hi
00:19 < mnemoc> we will need 2.0.*
00:19 < mnemoc> hi daja77 
00:19 < mnemoc> tcr: ?
00:19 < cchamilt> hi daja77
00:19 < tcr> mnemoc, did you write that text just a moment ago?
00:20 < daja77> hi cchamilt, mnemoc 
00:20 < mnemoc> tcr: no, i 'mantain' it from log time ago
00:20 < mnemoc> whY?
00:21 < mnemoc> s,log,long,
00:22 < tcr> Hmm, so there's another point "Missing communication" we should add to the list
00:22 < cchamilt> mnemoc i have mod_security.
00:22 < cchamilt> I can give it to you.
00:22 < mnemoc> :)
00:22 < mnemoc> we can merge ;)
00:22 < cchamilt> mod_security sucks as it is quite dangerous if you use the example config.
00:23 < cchamilt> It produces 550 errors randomly as it is too sensitive.
00:23 < mnemoc> :\
00:23 < cchamilt> I think it is OK, but big warnings need put in place.
00:24 < mnemoc> any better implementation?
00:24 < cchamilt> Well, just not use all of its features is what I did.
00:24 < cchamilt> It is configurable.
00:25 < cchamilt> Might add a better example I guess when I find it.
00:25 < mnemoc> i *good* example on share/doc/mod-security can be very appreciated
00:25 < mnemoc> s/i/a/1
00:25 < cchamilt> I really need to resend rxr my packages I guess.
00:26 < cchamilt> Yeah.
00:26 < mnemoc> cchamilt: chunk them and send the to the list
00:26 < cchamilt> I will try.  I want to start a fight about cpan package names first though.
00:27 < mnemoc> some of your cpan modules fit inside my perl-libxml package
00:27 < cchamilt> Yes, but I think rock package name should come from cpan package names.
00:27 < mnemoc> imho 1:1 is not acceptable
00:28 < mnemoc> we can't clone cpan
00:28 < cchamilt> Yes, but then we have things like the gnupod packages.
00:28 < daja77> Error logs from athlon_xp_minimal-2.0.0-rc4-x86-athlon-xp-32-generic-expert:
00:28 < daja77>  [5]   0 base/libdaemon                  [5]   0 base/ifplugd
00:28 < daja77>  [5]   0 base/pcmcia-cs
00:28 < daja77> :(
00:29 < cchamilt> How the heck can anyone figure out what is in the 'gnupod-perlmods'
00:29 < cchamilt> And the definitely do apply to more than just gnupod.
00:29 < cchamilt> Since, we can not over-write files, we need consistent and informative naming.
00:30 < cchamilt> Anyway, that is the fight we need to have. :)
00:31 < mnemoc> tcr: should i wait?
00:32 < tcr> mnemoc, Not anylonger
00:32 < mnemoc> cchamilt: what happend to your tla-svn-rock project?
00:32 < tcr> have a nice day/evening, whatever is appropriate to your timezone
00:32 < cchamilt> my server is still flaky and I havent learned enough on i.
00:33 < mnemoc> tcr: what should i expected as RE:? comment, stones or silence?
00:33 < cchamilt> I worry about tracking revision numbers as rxr started branches.
00:33 < cchamilt> mnemoc, I think glancing at it, that it is pretty good for starting the right conversations.
00:35 < mnemoc> we need more conversation on the ML =)
00:35 < mnemoc> to much silence until now
00:35 < cchamilt> yes, but the ml is just dead anymore.  Then again I was always more vocal on it till irc.
00:36 < daja77> ok I am off again, n8
00:36 < mnemoc> n8 daja77 
00:36 < mnemoc> cu cchamilt, tcr
00:36 < tcr> gn8 daja77
00:36 < cchamilt> i need to bitch and profisize more.
00:36 < cchamilt> n8
00:36 < tcr> cchamilt, heh
00:37 < cchamilt> speling
00:37 * A-Tui is back (gone 00:36:01)
00:37 < cchamilt> I think we do need more catalyst conversations on ml.
00:38 < tcr> No was wrt your "was [...] more vocal on it till irc"
00:38 < cchamilt> I must remember to reply to mnemoc, even if it is to just agree with him.
00:40 < cchamilt> Well irc doesn't work quite as well as the ml list in reaching people, though it allows discussions easier.
00:41 < cchamilt> It is also annoying how silent the ml is when you do ask it questions or discussions.  You have to come to irc and drag the discussion out of people.
00:42 < cchamilt> I guess I should make baseless and false positions to assign and confront people with on the ml. :P
00:42 < tcr> Exactly. irc is good for instant things like talking when actually implementing something. but planning and plotting should be on a ml (because thoughts tend to become more mature and developed there)
00:43 < tcr> and especially are points not lost as quickly as here
00:44 < cchamilt> Seriously, we need to make the ml discussions at specific people.  Not just the list.
00:44 < tcr> Hm?
00:45 < cchamilt> Like mnemoc said some important things, and didn't describe things too thoroughly (so I can ask him to elaborate).  But there were things that addressed specific plans of rxr he could have presented as questions directly to him.
00:46 < cchamilt> Forcing a conversation, not just making statements of opinion.
00:47 < cchamilt> I make statements of opinion only when I dont want discussion (ie. I like my idea and hope there is no conflicting opinions).
00:47 < cchamilt> However, when there are stated opinions or when it is not specific (just random goals/ideas) discussion should be forced.
00:49 < tcr> Whatever. Don't expect me to participate excessively though
00:49 < cchamilt> heh
00:50 < cchamilt> Tired of rock?
00:50 < tcr> Yeah, but not only of it
00:51 < cchamilt> ok, what else
00:51 < tcr> It's the end of the year, time for depressions
00:51 < cchamilt> oh, well if youre manic 11 months out of the year, crap that would be cool...
00:52 < cchamilt> i could actually finish projects on time if my swings weren't so fast.
00:52 < tcr> You know, one year off again without any noteworthy progress
00:53 < cchamilt> Im 27, you have plenty of time to not accomplish anything.
00:53 < tcr> ie. I feel how time becomes quicker and quicker
00:54 < cchamilt> Yeah, well maybe your starting to reach that stage in your life.
00:54 < cchamilt> But I doubt it.  It will get much worse probably.
00:55 < cchamilt> The time where you stop dreading the future and start regretting the past.
00:55 < tcr> It's scary, I know exactly how the discussion -- very similiar to the one we lead above -- was held (proper past of hold?) a year ago exactly to the same time (during ccc)
00:55 < cchamilt> I mean you can always do it, but one becomes more prominent than the other.
00:56 < cchamilt> I had this discussion with clifford for 3 years straight I think.
00:56 < cchamilt> Now we get to do it with rxr on the other side.
00:57 < tcr> Today I was somewhat productive and rewrote the commandline arguments parsing of cdialog
00:57 < cchamilt> However, rock is much better.  it is sad how long it took and i cant take any credit so I am thankful.
00:58 < tcr> Needed a quarter of the original LOC (wasn't finsihed though) and you know what it ended non-working because of those damn fucking restrictions made by C and its even dumber standard commitee
00:58 < tcr> That had a deep impact on my mood today
00:59 < cchamilt> well, i know the feeling.
00:59 < cchamilt> Getting code to work is so depressing, it is so close to working.
01:00 < tcr> Hell no.. programming is a great activity
01:00 < cchamilt> So your just frustrated that what you think should work doesnt?
01:01 < tcr> well it would work if the standard wouldn't say that something like a "char *argv[]" doesn't belong into a structure for whoseever sake
01:02 < tcr> or more precisely only on the end of a structure
01:02 < tcr> whereby that's c99 again, afaik
01:02 < cchamilt> Yeah, most the committee I hate are those damn syntax parsing boards... :)
01:04 < cchamilt> I dont mean to belittle your complaint, just languages are quite arbitrary.  That is the fun of them.
01:04 < tcr> There're some things which make me frustrated, that are, primarely, a) languages which require too much thought on getting their syntax right and b) crappy sourcecode
01:06 < cchamilt> I agree.
01:07 < tcr> Latter makes you really sad, especially if you indented to hack a bit on a programm, but you're obstacled by the quality of the source code
01:07 < cchamilt> I tried to think of something witty, but nope.  It is the evils of programming.
01:08 < cchamilt> Yeah, I mean I work mostly on fluffy php stuff.  The ideas of other people are so great, but their code is shit.
01:08 < cchamilt> tikiwiki rocks, till you try and look at the code.
01:09 < tcr> I don't want to say here my source is the non-plus-ultra (therefore I miss too much experience)
01:09 < tcr> Uh, I planned to reuse some code of tikiwiki
01:09 < cchamilt> :)
01:09 < tcr> (never looked at it, but it offers some functionality I would need)
01:10 < cchamilt> I just have read tons of php, I have a very specific idea of how code should be done on websites now.
01:10 < cchamilt> Oh tikiwiki has really cool features.  I plan to probably just cut and past logic from it.
01:11 < tcr> I never read much code, neither I wrote much. That's largely because short after I learned programming I didn't dare to write software because I wanted to make it (ie. its quality) right, so I started reading about programming practises and stuff
01:12 < tcr> I thought "Why should I learn from my experience, if I can learn from other's much quicklier"
01:12 < tcr> and as far as I can tell, it worked :)
01:13 < cchamilt> That is fine, I hack most things.  Starting fresh code is almost impossible for me.  I actually have made Jocelyn start projects for me before.
01:13 < tcr> Hehe, that's the anger of the white sheet of paper
01:14 < cchamilt> More like the randomness and babbling my brain tends to do.
01:14 < cchamilt> Priorities and random thoughts quickly make messes for me.
01:14 < tcr> http://www.markforster.net/index.php?view=47
01:14 < tcr> http://www.markforster.net/index.php?view=38
01:16 < cchamilt> I fill research notebooks full of worthless code.
01:17 < cchamilt> brb
01:19 < cchamilt> b
01:21 < cchamilt> yeah, i have ideas.  I just cant sit still when there isn't a finished product, nor can i shorten my goals to find them.
01:22 < tcr> Try to go from the uttermost thing to the inntermost one. That means always write the "client site" first. E.g. when doing some site, first do the website with the interface to the user, be the user and try to find out what's *really* needed. Then go stept for stept into the detail (for example, today I wrote the main() routine as the first thing using different data structures and several functions without having written them yet. Then I go struc
01:22 < tcr> ture after structure and function after function and fill it out (where I may use other functions again in such a function which I would have to go after the next step)
01:23 < tcr> That's a good way to find out what's needed, to find out a good API and to be declarative
01:23 < cchamilt> hmm
01:24 < cchamilt> yeah, maybe there is something to that.
01:25 < cchamilt> I have always wanted to create the be all end all web 'system'.  I think I am always looking from the backend trying to create too many options.
01:25 < tcr> Not to forget test-driven-development (you write the unittest before writing the appropriate code)
01:25 < tcr> forgot
01:25 < cchamilt> I should look from the client ('final application') and limit my features.
01:26 < cchamilt> how do you do that for web?
01:26 < tcr> There're certainly unittest frameworks for php, wait
01:27 < cchamilt> libraries and classe, sure.  but html is not very testable.
01:28 < tcr> http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/PHPUnit/, http://phpunit.sourceforge.net/
01:29 < tcr> Heh, "A unit testing framework written in Java intended for use when testing html based web sites." (http://sourceforge.net/projects/htmlunit)
01:29 < cchamilt> hmm
01:29 < cchamilt> good
01:32 < tcr> Hacking on a project with coherent and good unittests is so *graceful*
01:32 < cchamilt> I think I will play the phpunit.
01:32 < tcr> You can refactor and just run "make test" and if that succeeds, there's a good likelyhood that you didn't break anything
01:33 < cchamilt> oh that is pretty cool
01:33 < cchamilt> could run this on php cli.
01:34 < cchamilt> ok, need to shower.
01:34 < cchamilt> thanks for the info.
01:34 < tcr> yeah, need to sleep anyway ;)
01:34 < cchamilt> ok l8r
01:34 < tcr> Aye, gn8
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02:00 < rxr> cu
02:06 < mnemoc> re
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02:44 < dreamind> Hi
02:47 < mnemoc> hi dreamind 
02:48 < dreamind> Hi mnemoc 
02:49 < cytrinox> gn8
02:49 < mnemoc> n8 cytrinox 
02:57 < dreamind> nite
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09:27 < netrunner> moin
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10:54 < starlord> where do i add kernel modules for it to load during boot? i added/modifyed alias eth0 natsemi to /etc/modules.conf but it doesnt load it
10:55 < netrunner> starlord: are your net if set up at boot?
10:56 < starlord> ??
10:56 < starlord> /etc/rc.d/init.d/network is setted to boot, does rocknet(?) have line for module in config?
11:01 < starlord> and why i cant get cpufreqd to work,it complains about cpufeq interface missing,but i have enabled it via Config
11:34 * netrunner shutting down for trip to berlin.
11:36 < mnemoc> re
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11:41 < starlord> mnemoc:you have extra time for helping me out? :)
11:41 < mnemoc> i can try :)
11:42 < starlord> where do i add kernel modules for it to load during boot,i have network card that needs natsemi module and i tryed to add alias eth0 natsemi to /etc/modules.conf but that didnt help me
11:44 < mnemoc> doesn't rockplug detect it?
11:44 < starlord> nope
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11:44 < mnemoc> etc/conf/pci
11:45 < mnemoc> there you enum modules you want to force ruckplug to load or to skip
11:45 < asshole|Universe> hi
11:45 < mnemoc> hi owl
11:45 < mnemoc> how is your new life going?
11:46 < starlord> mnemoc:you have cpufreqd activated? or know how to put it on?
11:47 < mnemoc> starlord: never used it :\ what error do you get?
11:48 < starlord> cpufreq interface not found :) but i did put it on from Config and i see few modules also build by kernel so it "should" be there
11:48 < asshole|Universe> mnemoc: happy x-mas first
11:49 < mnemoc> starlord: are they loaded?
11:49 < asshole|Universe> it's going on... 
11:49 < mnemoc> owl: MERRY XMAS :)
11:49 < asshole|Universe> thx ;)
11:49 < starlord> nope :)
11:49 < mnemoc> starlord: add them to the list in the same file
11:50 < starlord> ok,will try that
11:52 < asshole|Universe> someone knows if the nvidia-driver will run with 2.6.0?
11:54 < mnemoc> you will tell us :)
11:55 < asshole|Universe> *cough* hmmm. 
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13:00 < mnemoc> *yawn*
13:02 < daja77> hi mnemoc 
13:03 < mnemoc> hi daja
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13:07 < mnemoc> daja77: how are you? what are you doing today?
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15:36 < netcrow> ew
15:37 < daja77> re
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15:52 < mnemoc> wb daja77 
15:53 < mnemoc> rxr: ping
15:55 < daja77> thx mnemoc 
15:56 < mnemoc> today is the chaotic day?
15:57 < daja77> hm?
15:57 < mnemoc> 20c3
15:57 < daja77> tomorrow
15:57 < mnemoc> will you be there?
15:59 < daja77> yep
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16:23 < daja77> mnemoc: how come that you are online at xmas?
16:24 < mnemoc> today is 26 :)
16:24 < daja77> ye
16:24 < daja77> the second celebration day, no?
16:24 < mnemoc> no :(
16:25 < mnemoc> work day
16:25 < daja77> oh
16:25 < daja77> never been one in germany
16:26 < mnemoc> oh
16:26 < daja77> you should move *gg*
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16:43 < mnemoc> i need to get my fscking degree before thinking in moving away
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16:50 < tcr> moin all
16:52 < mnemoc> moin tcr
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16:56 < daja77> hi tcr
16:58 < daja77> mnemoc: thought you have a degree and you are working atm, no?
16:58 < mnemoc> yep
17:01 < mnemoc> but i need to take some (2) 'electric', (9) economic/finances courses, do the practices (2) and take two big exams to get my degree :'( 
17:01 < mnemoc> i hope to get that in the next two years
17:05 < daja77> good luck
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17:08 < mnemoc> what about you?
17:08 < daja77> i hope i finish in 2004
17:09 < mnemoc> how long (officialy) is your career?
17:09 < daja77> my career?
17:11 < mnemoc> the thing you are studing
17:11 < daja77> i subscribed 1997 ...
17:11 < mnemoc> me too :)
17:12 < daja77> ;-)
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17:49 * daja77 yawns
17:52 < mnemoc> daja77: what are YOU doing plugged here?
17:58 < daja77> talking, preparing stuff for 20c3 ...
17:59 < daja77> just pulled the athon xp minimal build from ija's  computer
18:00 < daja77> and waiting for mozilla 1.5 to compile here ...
18:01 < daja77> and now off for dinner ...
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18:08 < mnemoc> mozilla is a pain :\
18:08 < mnemoc> bbl
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21:51 < mnemoc> re
21:53 < daja77> wb
21:55 < mnemoc> is your speech ready? :)
21:56 < daja77> i am doin no speech
21:56 < mnemoc> only clifford?
21:57 < daja77> yep, but i fear his speech wasn't registered due bugs in the web form
21:57 < mnemoc> ehm, then RL will just 'be there'?
21:58 < daja77> clifford is doin a speech about rock and another one
22:01 -!- LuckyLuke [~LuckyLuke@dsl-213-023-130-036.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
22:04 < mnemoc> "I will give an introduction into VHDL development at 20C3."
22:04 -!- bluefire [bluefire@pD9522F15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ("leaving")
22:05 < daja77> :)
22:06 < LuckyLuke> realy ?
22:06 < LuckyLuke> it's not far from here
22:06 < mnemoc> clifford will, not me
22:09 < mnemoc> http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/
22:10 < LuckyLuke> yes on day 1 at 18 o'clock
22:18 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EA974F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
22:19 < tcr> moin all
22:22 -!- k3t_ [k3t@pD9502DD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
22:27 < mnemoc> moin tcr
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--- Log closed Sat Dec 27 00:00:05 2003