--- Log opened Sat Mar 13 00:00:31 2004
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00:30 < holyolli> moin
00:30 < A-Tui> hi holyolli
00:30 < holyolli> hi A-Tui
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01:07 < darix> btw: svn 1.0.1 is out
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10:00 < daja77> moin
10:57 < laga_> moin daja77
10:58 < daja77> moin laga_ 
10:59 < daja77> first machine is running rocklinux again
10:59 * daja77 happy
10:59 < laga_> my laptop is running rock linux too...beta 6...
10:59 * laga_ not happy
11:02 < daja77> running a 2.0 prebuild here
11:04 * netrunne1 burning 2.0 isos
11:04 * laga_ is going to download the 2.0 isos
11:06 < laga_> btw, which xfree is in 2.0? 4.4?
11:09 < daja77> cu later
11:11 < laga_> cya
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11:39 < cytrinox`> moin
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12:14 < rxr> laga_: 4.4-rc3 or so
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14:08 < mnemoc> moin
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15:28 * netrunne1 would like to add the ntfsprogs to bootdisk. As XP and 2k are widely spread today, resizing a ntfs partition to install rock next to it would be a nice feature.
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15:31 < A-Tui> hola
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15:35 < mnemoc> netrunner: for cd-boot there is no problem but what about floppies? 
15:38 < netrunner> mnemoc: the customer pcs that ship with xp have no floppy drive anyway ;)
15:38 < mnemoc> =)
15:40 -!- tfing [~tfing@APoitiers-103-1-4-231.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux
15:40 < tfing> hi
15:41 < tfing> does someone has a 2.0.0-minimal.iso available ?
15:41 < tfing> (have)
15:44 < mnemoc> i uploaded an almost-2.0.0-but-fixed-minimal to rene, but i don't know if we publish it
15:44 -!- pieass [~se@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:1add] has joined #rocklinux
15:46 < tfing> mnemoc: that would be fine as long as it boots
15:46 < mnemoc> it does
15:47 < pieass> should linux2.6+alsa+devfs run without any problems under rocklinux-2.0.0?
15:47 < tfing> hmm, url where i could pull it ?
15:48 < pieass> btw. hi.
15:48 < mnemoc> it's at gsmp.${whatever}-berlin.de but  i'm not the one to make that public
15:49 < mnemoc> pieass, current stable don't support linux26-only machines, you need to use lx24-headers
15:50 < pieass> hmm, i've got a 3 cd-set desktop build on the linux-tag in chemnitz.
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15:51 < tfing> rxr: ping ?
15:51 < mnemoc> pieass: 2.0.0 (and 2.0.1) don't support it dou to kernel headers on user-space apps war, patches are available on submaster but not yet applied
15:52 < pieass> well, then i should use linux-2.4 and everything will be fine?
15:52 < mnemoc> yep
15:55 < tfing> mnemoc: rock-2.0.0-rc4-rev2366-pentium-mmx_cd1.iso   <- is it that file ?
15:55 * A-Tui is away: /away
15:55 < mnemoc> uhm.... same revision, same opt
15:56 < mnemoc> where is it?
15:56 < tfing> http://drocklinux.dyndns.org/ftp/drock/stable/2.0.0-rc4/minimal/
15:56 < tfing> that should suit me, i'll get it
15:57 < mnemoc> 4d47ee1e34e10aef202c399b6fdb91da  <--- my md5
15:57 * mnemoc curious :)
15:58 < tfing> |:: cat rock-2.0.0-rc4-rev2366-pentium-mmx_cd1.iso.md5 
15:58 < tfing> |7a4ca8e934211bd014b9782344a0d371  rock-2.0.0-rc4-rev2366-pentium-mmx_cd1.iso
15:58 < mnemoc> uhm
15:59 < tfing> i'll give the md5 of the iso file when the dl is over
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16:38 < tcr> moin all
16:46 < pieass> hmm, is there no XFS support in linux-2.4?
16:48 < tcr> Not officially, unless it got backported in some recent version
16:48 < tcr> There's a working patch available though
16:50 < pieass> if i knew this before, i would have made my root ext3 or so..
16:50 < tfing> tcr: it is available in 2.4.25
16:52 < tcr> tfing, nice. :)
16:52 < pieass> can i apply the patch from kernel.org against the kernel-source in /usr/src/linux-2.4.24-rock?
16:54 < pieass> ah, i see, therefore exists /usr/src/linux24-patches
16:55 < tcr> pieass, patch's option --dry-run becomes quite handy for this case
16:55 < pieass> ok, thanks. :)
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17:39 < A-Tui> cu all
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19:05 < daja77> re
19:05 * daja77 wants to beat that person who disabled ppp support for isdn in rocklinux kernel
19:55 -!- cchamilt [~chatzilla@cm89.sigma51.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #rocklinux
19:55 < cchamilt> lo
19:56 < laga__> hi cchamilt
19:56 < daja77> hi cchamilt 
19:57 < cchamilt> got 2.0.0|1 generic built through stage 9 with about 30 real errors.
19:59 < cchamilt> I wonder if anyone wants it since so much has been changed in the past few days.
19:59 < laga__> hmm. i'll try it tomorrow, maybe I can replicate this
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20:11 < cchamilt> hi tcr
20:11 < cchamilt> tcr:you use tla for your home right?
20:17 < tcr> moin cchamilt
20:19 < tcr> cchamilt, I did so. Not currently (without any reason, had to rearrange some things here and haven't set it up again so far)
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20:26 < cchamilt> tcr:how did you commit stuff?
20:28 < tcr> cchamilt, Well you must adapt the naming conventions first
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20:29 < cchamilt> yes, what do you set them up as?  also how do you get it to automatically add new files?
20:30 < tcr> I just set source to everything begining with a dot and a few directory names I want stored in arch (like private/)
20:31 < cchamilt> ok, so not everything then.  I was wondering whether I should exclude names with spaces since it doesnt handle them.
20:31 < tcr> No, that's not accurate... I'm having private/ seperately under arch :) Stil you get what I mean
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20:31 < tcr> You have files with spaces in its names?
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20:32 < cchamilt> I want to put a filesystem under arch. hopefully no spaces, but it might encounter them.
20:33 < tcr> They will screw tla up. Though that's going to change quite soon, someone's working on it and the progress is getting in final state (afaik)
20:33 < cchamilt> thank god.
20:34 < tcr> Beware that tla ain't a backup tool
20:34 < cchamilt> so in arch, once the conventions are up, it can automatically add new files right?
20:34 < tcr> so putting a whole filesystem (ie. almost every file within that fs) does not make much sense
20:34 < cchamilt> Oh no, think arch being used as flist.
20:35 < tcr> cchamilt, tla can automatically recognize new added files if your tagging method is tagline. Also you must embedd a special tag within the first or last kB of that file
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20:36 < cchamilt> must?
20:36 < cchamilt> how does arch support binaries correctly then?
20:36 < tcr> Yeah if you want that tla automatically recognizes them
20:37 < tcr> You must explicitely add 'em
20:37 < tcr> See http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/ID_2dtagging_20methods
20:37 < cchamilt> damn.  I really need a vc system that will just pickup new files.
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20:41 < cchamilt> i think names is what i want really.
20:41 < tcr> cchamilt, that would be silly for any vc
20:41 * A-Tui is away: A galopar, a galopar, hasta enterrarlos en el mar!
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20:41 < cchamilt> maybe one built only to be used to store a program's source.  but not a general version control system.
20:44 < cchamilt> See what I want to do is not put a distribution into a set of packages.  I want a whole distribution, and then changesets.
20:44 < tcr> cchamilt, hm I didn't think of names
20:44 < tcr> (as tagging scheme)
20:44 < tcr> that should do what you want
20:44 < cchamilt> Kind of like windows update but for linux.
20:46 < cchamilt> Put /etc under a separate one that the user can make revisions, and the root under one that can be officially revisioned.  So changesets can be pushed or pulled to users.
20:47 < cchamilt> Simple version numbering and detailed changesets would be all a user needs to select the right changeset for his needs.
20:47 < cchamilt> sorry /changesets/changelogs/1
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20:49 < tcr> re (shortly away)
20:51 < tcr> cchamilt, Hmm.
20:52 < tcr> I don't I understand you... my first impression was that you wanted to create a sandbox, but that doesn't have anything to do with updating
20:52 < tcr> +think
20:53 < cchamilt> I want to make appliances that can have their software updated(and therefore secure for idiots to use).  And since I can spec the hardware in the appliance, I can make fairly specific distributions.
20:54 < cchamilt> So, I can send changesets to the appliances when bugs/security holes occur and tla can 'sync' to that version.  If a user wants to control it or to go back a revision, then they can too.
20:55 < cchamilt> If a user screws up their /etc, then this will also have a mechanism in place to go back before the screwup.
20:56 < tcr> Well, but /etc shouldn't contain binary files
20:57 < cchamilt> No, but it may contain screwups.  I want / and /etc under two separate repositories in tla.
20:57 < tcr> so tagline may very well something for you (which would have the advantage that only tagged files get in the archive, not newly added files by third party tools the user installed)
20:57 < cchamilt> good point
20:58 < cchamilt> I was thinking of integrating rock and tla so that tla could handle rock installs.  I wonder if I could set it up to ignore non-rock changes.
20:59 < tcr> So if I summary what you intend into one line, it's that you want to use tla as synchronization tool for your clients?
20:59 < cchamilt> Yes.
20:59 < cchamilt> Linux doesnt have any real tool to do this now.
21:00 < tcr> Not a bad idea. The thing is what happens if conflicts occurr?
21:01 < tcr> On the other hand
21:01 < cchamilt> Yep.  That is why I want users to be able to revision.  If there are conflicts, maybe it can warn someone to fix it manually.  OR, I could just forbid people using this to screw with things...
21:01 < tcr> Ah
21:02 < cchamilt> It still has to have hooks to run lilo, reboot, restart daemons, so it wont just be tla.  But tla can be the backbone.
21:02 < tcr> Well, the thing is that users won't probably edit those lines manually (if I understand your target publicum), but will use conf tools
21:02 < tcr> So conflicts are probably a dilemma, because they know a shit about it
21:03 < cchamilt> Hopefully, and maybe the config files can be handled so that they space variables apart,etc (easier diffing).  So conflicts can be easily fixed.
21:04 < cchamilt> Fixed variable order would be good too, though that is getting draconian.
21:04 < tcr> I wonder
21:05 < tcr> when anyhting in /etc has ever to be updated anyway
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21:05 < cchamilt> Heck, if it gets a conflict, maybe they can just open a special ssh port and call home.
21:06 < cchamilt> I think /etc may change some.  I dont want to limit the scope of the updates, though big changes in linux may be still hard to do incrementally.
21:06 < cchamilt> Right now, it is still pretty much that when libc changes, the whole thing needs reinstalled.
21:07 < tcr> I have no idea about update software...
21:08 < cchamilt> Thinking about it, I know that some mta's add more stuff to their configs.  Otherwise /etc is pretty stable unless something like ssh making a new /etc/sshd directory occurs.
21:08 < cchamilt> Yeah, it is the one thing windows users always stick to linux when they know.
21:09 < cchamilt> No matter how easy apt-get or whatever is, it still is very manual and problematic.
21:09 < tcr> But there's a bunch of software for that kind out there
21:09 < cchamilt> Windows update when they dont screw up the patch, tends to work well.
21:10 < tcr> Because every distribution has a facility since it's so crucial
21:10 < tcr> I don't know. Do you want something just for you clients? or for potential everybody?
21:10 < cchamilt> Yes, but it is the idea of grannies rebuilding kernels and the idea of reconfiging packages and untested version problems (which bin distros have more than we do).
21:11 < cchamilt> If it worked well, I would not mind everybody.  However, much of the tool is going to probably be the system (me), not just the software.
21:12 < tcr> Hmm.
21:12 < cchamilt> I think linux should have automatic vc on /etc for actual users, and windows-update for just lusers.
21:13 < cchamilt> I was hoping to solve both.
21:13 < tcr> Absolutely. I think what we really want is vc capable filesystems
21:13 < cchamilt> I dont want to have people saying I want to control their linux, so I figure both ways is good.
21:14 < cchamilt> Yes, but their are none, only some crappy stuff for solaris and the quasi-vcing of coda/intermesso.
21:14 < cchamilt> Maybe hook tla up to a userland fs module.
21:15 < tcr> I think using tla as backbone isn't bad all
21:15 < tcr> at all
21:15 < cchamilt> For each directory have a set of subdirs that do specific 'names' of branches and dates.
21:16 < tcr> Also tla could be used as a backbone for package management in general
21:16 < cchamilt> so I can get /bob (current) or /bob/012399122345 or /bob/BETA
21:16 < cchamilt> Yep, that is what i want.
21:17 < tcr> Oh. That's not what I got out
21:17 < cchamilt> Oh, you mean as replacements for individual gems, yes that too. Though I dont have a specific user.
21:17 < tcr> figured out
21:17 < tcr> no idea what the right expression is
21:18 < tcr> Yeah I meant as replacement for apt-get etc
21:18 < tcr> So I was right that this isn't directly what you want?
21:18 < cchamilt> Yeah, I thought of that first as the flist replacement for it would be easier I thought.
21:19 < cchamilt> But, eventually I just want across the board changeset to update all of /.
21:19 < cchamilt> So the cd would just install the initial checkout/mirror/whatever.
21:20 < tcr> Hmm as flist replacement... that makes big sense
21:20 < cchamilt> Making a userfs with tla though doesnt seem to be the same work as merging it as a rock flist replacement.
21:20 < tcr> because a flist file is just a very static database, tla would be much more dynamical
21:21 < tcr> But really what you want is explicit tagging then
21:21 < cchamilt> Ugh
21:21 < cchamilt> Explain
21:21 < tcr> All files are `tla added' during installation :)
21:22 < cchamilt> Yes, but the tagging would be monotonous wouldn't it?
21:22 < tcr> You must see that `tla add $foo' as an addition of an entry in the database
21:22 < cchamilt> rockrev-package-pkgver-file-....
21:22 < tcr> The cool thing is that tla would keep track of moves
21:23 < tcr> so say you move /bin/bash to /bin/bash2.05 for some reason
21:23 < cchamilt> yeah, so updates could be interesting.
21:24 < tcr> So when you decide to delete the bash package, then /bin/bash2.05 is also deleted
21:24 < cchamilt> Sounds like install-wrapper should trigger tla.
21:24 < tcr> which were currently not possible with the static flist files
21:24 < tcr> install-wrapper?
21:25 < tcr> No. pkg-add resp. mine
21:25 < cchamilt> INSTALL-WRAPPER, you know the thing that rock copies files into the build directory with.
21:26 < cchamilt> Should do it in the build system.
21:26 < tcr> Yeah. but I see. we were talking cross eachother a bit :)
21:26 < tcr> I was talking about the installation of a package, you seemingle spoke about the build
21:26 < cchamilt> Your thinking post build, during install.
21:26 < tcr> Yep
21:27 < cchamilt> Yeah, I think it is easier to start the system in the build and just nudge flist completely out of the way.
21:27 < tcr> Let me think about the case during the build, what consequences that would mean
21:27 < cchamilt> Besides, rock already has a 'set' of tools there, this could be just another I hope.
21:28 < cchamilt> tla needs nothing but diff to build I think, so it can fit in the stage 1 easily.
21:29 < tcr> gnu diff, gnu patch and gnu tar
21:29 < cchamilt> I think build it at 0 to capture 1, then again in late part of 1 and then it is ready.
21:32 < rxr> rehi
21:32 < tcr> How do you mean that exactly as flist replacement, cchamilt?
21:32 < cchamilt> At the end. we would have the gems and the final archive too.
21:32 < tcr> final archive filled with what?
21:33 < cchamilt> flist monitors the files touched, tla does that too, so no need for both.
21:33 < cchamilt> final archive would be the tla archive of the root/.
21:33 < cchamilt> hi rxr
21:34 < cchamilt> tla does the find based scan I think.
21:35 < cchamilt> I was thinking of storing {arch} inside /var/adm/{arch} or similar on the live system.
21:37 < cchamilt> The question on my mind right now is how to capture root/etc in tla without tla revisioning in the main repository after install (as /etc should be in its own repository).
21:38 < tcr> Give me some time for thinking. I think I'm slowly arriving to your conclusion
21:38 < cchamilt> I guess it could do both repos at the same time during the build.
21:39 < cchamilt> Yeah, I spent days on it, and months pondering similar ideas.
21:39 < cchamilt> rxr: what do you think?
21:43 < tcr> That's not even silly. I mean that were not only a replacement for flist, but for the gems, too :) because you could use an arch changeset as package
21:44 < cchamilt> Yep, that was what I thought you meant a while back.  Just commit per package, then go back and get each rev as a package.
21:44 < cchamilt> commit log could be whole desc for the package or something.
21:45 < tcr> Wonderful, you seem to grok what I mean. I just started to write my implicit thoughts down :)
21:45 < tcr> That's quite cool
21:46 < cchamilt> Yeah, well I am happy you know what I am saying to, Jocelyn has started staring into space when I try to discuss this with her.
21:46 < tcr> Heh.. 8)
21:47 < rxr> cchamilt: I would need to read scrollback and have not much time now ...
21:47 < cchamilt> No prob.  Think revision control as flist/mine replacement.
21:47 < tcr> cchamilt, guess what there're people who intend to extend arch's changelog to contain dependance metainformation and stuff. wait a sec
21:48 < tcr> That fits *greatly* in our little picture
21:48 < cchamilt> probably parallel thoughts.
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21:49 < tcr> cchamilt, not really but anyway take a look at this http://wiki.gnuarch.org/moin.cgi/Discuss_20Arch_20features_2fLogicDependcyTracking
21:49 < cchamilt> How do they get dependency metadata or what dependencies... OK
21:50 < tcr> By adding special tags to the patch-log
21:50 < tcr> See 1.3.1
21:52 < cchamilt> that is still useful and may actually be used for our deps...
21:52 < cchamilt> that is neat, and strangely non-parallel solving of same problem.
21:53 < cchamilt> So we need to name our package changesets, then run through the .cache file marking them as deps if this is added to arch.
21:53 < tcr> Using tla as backbone for package management is nothing new btw :) tomlord stated several times that he could imagine something
21:53 < tcr> like that
21:54 < cchamilt> Yeah, I was stuck on whole fs ideas for the past few months, so it took me awhile to get this idea.
21:55 < cchamilt> It ends up the same, but this looks clean and easily implementable.
21:56 < cchamilt> i wonder what others will think, if they love mine or hate this idea, etc.
21:56 * tcr just got something to drink. he needs a milk drink after this thought crafting
21:57 < tcr> The question is whom you're gonna ask
21:57 < cchamilt> maybe we could get tla people on board rock or vice versa.
21:58 < cchamilt> Yes.  I am not sure myself.
21:58 < rxr> tla is what?
21:59 < cchamilt> we are thinking about tla for this 'package manager' as it has some good features.
21:59 < rxr> tla == ?
21:59 < cchamilt> tom lord's arch. the actual arch repo system.
21:59 < tcr> cchamilt, it's pretty much orthogonal to rock
21:59 < cchamilt> he changed it due to fork issues.
22:00 < tcr> what's changed?
22:00 < cchamilt> yeah, but rxr and clifford love svn, so ....
22:00 < tcr> with orthogonal I meant quite independent
22:00 < cchamilt> no tcr, I mean the historical change to tla from 'arch'
22:00 < tcr> That's misinformation then :)
22:00 < tcr> there were never that "arch"
22:01 < tcr> because that's more the concept
22:01 < cchamilt> yes, but everyone thinks that way as arch is now tla
22:01 < cchamilt> for the most part...
22:02 < tcr> not really, there's darc, monotone and ArX besides tla
22:02 < tcr> darcs actually
22:02 < cchamilt> well this idea is orthogonal, but it going to heavily use rock parts even if it is a 'fork' of sorts.
22:02 < cchamilt> and i would want blessings...
22:03 < cchamilt> yes, but tla is the one moving forward the best.
22:03 * A-Tui is away: Cuando la fiesta nacional yo me quedo en la cama igual! Qué la música militar nunco me supo despertar!
22:04 < tcr> I copied the log for mnemoc, because I think he's interested in it, since he told me yesterday he too has his own ideas about pkg management and stuff.
22:04 < cchamilt> if the idea works, then we should be in a position to merge back or become a rock option.  I would like to try to implement it as a rock option from the beginning.
22:04 < cchamilt> yes, I have whined to him about things to.  He would be onboard i think.
22:05 < cchamilt> It is just that rxr and clifford are rather invested in svn, that is all my real worries.
22:28 -!- Droot [~Droot@203.175.64.42] has quit ()
22:41 < daja77> erhm anyone tried to startup cups on a recent rock?
22:42 < cchamilt> no, not one built in this year.
22:42 < rxr> hi daja77 
22:43 < rxr> daja77: what the prob with cups ?
22:43 < daja77> it needs ages for startup
22:43 < daja77> hi rxr
22:43 < rxr> each time or just the first time ß
22:43 < rxr> s/ß/?/
22:43 < daja77> tried the first time right now
22:43 * rxr need to lear to press the shift key a bit deeper ...
22:44 < rxr> the first tiem always scans and caches all ppd files
22:44 < rxr> this is cups default - no rock modification
22:44 * rxr also hates this ...
22:44 < daja77> <- installed rock on all computers at his parent's
22:44 < daja77> :)
22:44 < rxr> ;-)
22:44 < daja77> 3 machines
22:45 * netrunner wanted to install rock today but missed ntfsprogs on bootdisk :/
22:45 < netrunner> re btw :)
22:45 < daja77> killed 2 win98 installs on the way ...
22:45 < rxr> hi netrunner 
22:45 < rxr> jups - I also only support ROCK at my parents ...
22:45 * netrunner pats daja on his back 
22:45 < daja77> hehe
22:45 < rxr> (which resulting in deleting non-functional Win~1 on the way too ...
22:46 < daja77> they never booted into windows anyway
22:46 < netrunner> If I had an equivalent to taxman for Linux, I'd also move my mom's to linux.
22:46 < daja77> netrunner: my father has linux sw for that
22:46 < rxr> there is a commercial tax thing for linux ...
22:48 < daja77> localhost:631 still points to the documentation instead of the interface
22:48 < cchamilt> I think I am going to sleep finally.
22:48 < daja77> n8 cchamilt 
22:48 < netrunner> daja77: this is something odd I also noticed, try adding /admin or so
22:48 < cchamilt> n8 all
22:48 < rxr> daja77: yes - we should aks the cups guys - and patch this away if they pretend to like this
22:48 < rxr> n8 cchamilt 
22:48 < netrunner> n8 cchamilt 
22:49 < netrunner> rxr: the qt thing, was that my fault? if so, sorry.
22:49 < rxr> netrunner: no - I messed it up ...
22:49 < rxr> (I guess)
22:53 < netrunner> may I submit a patch that includes ntfsprogs in bootdisk? they have 0.6 MB. or at least ntfsresize, 32K
22:53 < rxr> netrunner: go for it - but I would rather apply that for .2 or so
22:54 < netrunner> np, I just actually need it :)
22:54 < tfing> hi rxr
22:55 < tfing> can you make available the minimal-nearly-2.0.0.iso mnemoc uploaded to you ?
22:56 < daja77> btw what costed me the whole day was to figure out that ppp support for isdn was disabled in rocklinux kernel :(
22:57 < rxr> tfing: one minimal is at rc3
22:57 < rxr> tfing: I just had one minimal in my hand - but need to verify it before it push it
22:57 < rxr> might be in some minutes
22:57 < tfing> there is even one at rc4
22:57 < tfing> but i'd like something known to work
22:58 < rxr> tfing: I meant the rc4 - isn't it know to work?
22:59 < tfing> i don't know
22:59 < tfing> mnemoc told me he uploaded a working minimal iso, but it's not publicly available
22:59 < rxr> ok wait a sec
23:01 < rxr> tfing: copying
23:06 < netrunner> oh, a new noteedit :)
23:06 < rxr> http://gsmp.tfh-berlin.de/ftp/rock/stable/2.0.0/minimal/
23:07 < rxr> will also be on the mirros in some minutes ...
23:07 < rxr> tfing: please report if it work: rene@rocklinux.org ...
23:10 < tfing> ok, i'll try it and tell you
23:15 < rxr> it is now also at nexus.tfh-berlin.de
23:15 < rxr> and the fat iso.rocklinux.de resync is now also running
23:15 < rxr> n8 all
23:15 < netrunner> n8 rxr
23:25 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EA9BB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit (Remote closed the connection)
23:34 -!- trekkie3k [k3t@pD900577D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
23:40 < netrunner> fake: I'll test your linuxrc changes tomorrow.
23:45 < netrunner> hm, doesn't apply :(
--- Log closed Sun Mar 14 00:00:45 2004