--- Log opened Sam Mr 27 00:00:52 2004
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00:33 < mnemoc> where .profile is better than .bashrc (sourced from .profile) ?
00:34 < mnemoc> currently i only use it (.profile) to standarize TERMs
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00:58 < alex_i> Looks like now I can build ROCK even without DevFS.
00:59 < mnemoc> alex_i: yep
01:00 * alex_i is happy 
01:00 < alex_i> :)
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01:01 < alex_i> I awaited that for a long time 
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01:04 < mnemoc> =)
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01:06 < cchamilt_> rehi
01:07 < cchamilt_> hmm, how did i become _'d
01:07 < cchamilt_> mnemoc:?
01:07 < mnemoc> cchamilt?
01:08 < cchamilt_> What is the best way to make a set of files go to bit bucket using flist?
01:08 < cchamilt_> I want to make a generic do not install *.la for rock.
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01:09 < mnemoc> add a flistdel rule to your target
01:09 < cchamilt_> Well I want to patch sdl first.
01:10 < cchamilt_> So flistdel actually removes files from build root?
01:10 < mnemoc> nope, it ignore them when packaging
01:10 < cchamilt_> not good enough.
01:11 < cchamilt_> I have diagnosed that .la's are a virus in the build system.
01:11 < mnemoc> you can add a 'remover function' hooked at the end of build-pkg
01:11 < mnemoc> using your target's parse-config
01:13 < cchamilt_> Yeah, but wouldnt it be easier to do something like an install wrapper transform that just makes all .la files into /dev/null or something?
01:14 < mnemoc> you can move them to one known directory
01:14 < mnemoc> but cp /lib/foo.la /dev/null doesn't work :)
01:15 < cchamilt_> They are a broken helper for building, not much point keeping them around if they wont be used in building.
01:15 < cchamilt_> redhat religiously removes them, I think I see why.
01:15 < mnemoc> flistdel, who care about what's on builddir? ;)
01:16 < mnemoc> gotta go, bbl (30min)
01:16 < cchamilt_> They do a install wrapper delete transform at the end of their .spec files.
01:16 < cchamilt_> Because the .la's are corrupt and screw up builds.
01:16 < cchamilt_> That is exactly why I want them removed.
01:16 < cchamilt_> oh well, cya.
01:22 < cchamilt_> I think postflist_static_lib should remove .la's.
01:39 < mnemoc> re
01:41 < mnemoc> cchamilt_: i had no idea what .la were :) if it's how you said of course they should be removed
01:43 < cchamilt_> It is just that libtool is what generates and uses them, but libtool can easily screw up making them and libtool takes their data on blind faith.  All while libtool can also not use them and still find linking info for the library.
01:43 < cchamilt_> So they seem dangerous and pointless.
01:47 < mnemoc> can you post to the ML to produce some discussion
01:49 < cchamilt_> I haven't done enough testing to do more than rant at this stage.  I need to make a build without them to prove that is ok to remove them.
01:54 < mnemoc> what are you waiting for? :p
01:57 < cchamilt_> Just need a good way to do it cleanly.
02:01 < mnemoc> if you are write i think they should be removed by Build-Pkg while processing flist
02:01 < mnemoc> right*
02:10 < cchamilt_> something like that, 'if' I am right.  I am hoping that I can make something for sdl, and drop it in Build-Pkg and make it systemwide.
02:11 < mnemoc> you can test it doing it systemwide on your local tree, if fails you revert :)
02:12 < cchamilt_> yeah, the question is how best to write it.
02:15 < mnemoc> on postflist you have a finished $builddir/flist.txt, you can grep it and rm, and then grep -v to regenerate it without .la
02:15 < mnemoc> it's quite easy
02:22 < cchamilt_> Yeah, ok.
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02:58 < cchamilt_> Testing...
03:03 < mnemoc> cchamilt_: i am stood here, i am stand here, i am standing here
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03:05 < cchamilt_> i am standing here
03:06 < cchamilt_> looks like it works, hmm.  I have only about 6 broken packages in generic left.  Maybe I should send a diff.
03:07 < mnemoc> yep
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04:06 ::: Topic for #rocklinux: ROCK Linux 2.0.0 released! http://www.rocklinux.org/rock20.html
04:06 ::: Topic set by SMP  Mon Mar  8 01:33:41 2004
04:06 Users #rocklinux:
04:06 [ _bg_     ] [ cytrinox`] [ hannes_] [ mistik1  ] [ rockbot ] [ tfing] 
04:06 [ Aard     ] [ daja77   ] [ iceblox] [ mnemoc   ] [ rolla   ] [ th   ] 
04:06 [ alex_i   ] [ darix    ] [ ija    ] [ netcrow  ] [ rxr     ] [ togg ] 
04:06 [ blindy   ] [ dsoul    ] [ k3t__  ] [ netrunne1] [ SMP     ] [ true ] 
04:06 [ cchamilt_] [ fake     ] [ kasc   ] [ netrunner] [ snyke   ] 
04:06 [ clifford ] [ Freak    ] [ laga__ ] [ owl      ] [ StefanG_] 
04:06 ::: Irssi: #rocklinux: 34 nicks (@/0 +/0  -/0)
04:06 ::: Channel #rocklinux created Sun Aug  3 22:11:35 2003
04:06 ::: [freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots, please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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06:33 < SMP> rockbot: please identify your purpose and a person responsible for your operation
08:41 < cchamilt_> I think it is netrunner's.
08:41 < cchamilt_> Is anybody else having blender fail 'cause it cant find GLU in X11?
08:42 < cchamilt_> I think rock should maybe force some lib dir's into LDs path.
08:43 < cchamilt_> Not finding things in /lib or even /usr/X11/lib is goofy.
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09:11 < blindy> moin
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09:45 < netrunne1> moin , 2
09:45 ::: You're now known as netrunner
09:46 < netrunner> SMP: you expect quite a bit of intelligence from this bot ;) http://waterworld.dyndns.org/~andreas/rock-images.html
09:53 < tcr> moin all
09:55 < netrunner> moin tcr
09:58 < tcr> moin netrunner, how's the bot evaluating the social network between persons?
09:59 < tcr> Looking how much person A talks to person B by looking how often person A uses the name of person B?
10:00 < tcr> Maybe even by computing the average ratio
10:23 < alex_i> why should I be necessarily be root in order to build ROCK?
10:23 < alex_i> What about nonpriviledged build?
10:26 < daja77> are not implemented atm
10:26 < tcr> It isn't all that easy. Just think of file ownership
10:27 < alex_i> i am thinkning now
10:27 < alex_i> What the problem with that?
10:28 < alex_i> You mean some system files?
10:28 < tcr> For example
10:28 < tcr> also you can't change ownership of files unless you're root
10:29 < alex_i> On the filesystems with quotas only
10:29 < tcr> Eh?
10:29 < alex_i> I said, I can, but not always, though
10:30 < alex_i> That's the only reason?
10:31 < alex_i> Why not to have the build be unpriviledged and only in the end to change the ownerships?
10:31 < alex_i> Why not?
10:31 < tcr> How can you determine what ownership what files have to get?
10:31 < tcr> args, screwed up that sentence:
10:32 < tcr> How can you determine what files have to get what ownership?
10:32 < daja77> the main reason was not to screw the build scripts before releasing 2.0
10:33 < alex_i> I see. That make much more sense (I was speaking about daja's)
10:34 < alex_i> tcr: it's possible
10:34 < tcr> Don't put the problem in a light that makes it seem to be easily-solvable. It clearly needs a lot of thought I haven't yet invested into it.
10:34 < tcr> I'm not saying it's impossible though. :)
10:35 < alex_i> I did not say the word "easy"
10:36 < tcr> alex_i, I'd like to hear how you think the ownership problem to be solvable :) (Really, I think it isn't the only problem, it's just what came to mind at first)
10:38 < tcr> I doubt that all software's build system explitely specify what ownership their files should get
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10:41 < tcr> Hmm. Maybe this would do it: Assume you build ROCK with the user `foo' with uid `1000'. After the build, it were possible to chown all files with uid == 1000 to root
10:42 < tcr> Then again that would probably result in that all files are chowned to root, because a normal users may by default not change ownership of a file so that all files end up being owned by user `foo'
10:43 < alex_i> What about table?
10:43 < tcr> Really, the problem doesn't even lay within ROCK. Most software advocates to run make install as root for whatever reason
10:43 < alex_i> tcr: I have np running root
10:43 < tcr> So if you deliberately run make install as non-root you're breaking installation instructions of software
10:44 < alex_i> Actually, I built another systmem mostly as root
10:47 < blindy> one of the problems is the chroot, mounting and crossmounting of filesystems and directories
10:47 < tcr> alex_i, most things are build under a chroot anyway. While a chroot isn't unbreakable, it should at least be a barriere for malicious software builds (e.g. from compromised software)
10:47 < alex_i> When do I get the patches?
10:48 < alex_i> tcr: But, it is compromisable still. But I would prefer chroot to nothing
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10:49 < alex_i> In the rockbook, it is only said about getting sources from developers, not getting patches from you...
10:50 < tcr> alex_i, I consider it extremely rare that such a malicious software build has been written aware of the case when the software is built under a chroot
10:50 < alex_i> But we know that patches are needed sometimes
10:50 < alex_i> It makes sense
10:50 < tcr> How do you mean getting patches?
10:50 < alex_i> Anyway, there's nothing absolutely unbreakable
10:51 < alex_i> Downloading them
10:51 < alex_i> Some packages may need ROCK developers to patch them
10:51 < blindy> a lot do, actualy
10:52 < tcr> Yes. There was once policy that this is considered bad, and everything should be send upstream. This policy slowly vanished over the time though
10:52 < alex_i> But, the Download script, launched the way described in the book, downloads only package sources
10:52 < alex_i> What policy?
10:52 < tcr> alex_i, patches are stored in package/$repo/$pkg/ as *.patch's
10:53 < alex_i> Already? huh
10:54 < alex_i> This can be mentioned in the book, btw
10:54 < alex_i> In the obvious way...
10:55 < tcr> What page are you referring to?
10:55 < alex_i> I am afraid, I could not say what exactly you mean.
10:57 < cytrinox`> moin
11:00 < tcr> alex_i, what page of the book did you refer to?
11:00 < tcr> What page should be modified in your opinion
11:01 < _bg_> just a note on the "building as !root": there is fake root for/from debian that pretends to be root for broken installers. and rpm also supports building as not root.
11:01 < _bg_> both have a filelist in their package format that gives the right permissions
11:01 < alex_i> The rock handbook
11:02 < tcr> alex_i, yeah, but what part of the rock handbook? The book is quite big :)
11:02 < alex_i> You may look on NetBSD too
11:02 < _bg_> rpm also has a %defattr(-,root,root,0755) line that lists the default permissions: - for files: don't change, user root, group root, and use 0755 for new/nonexisting directories
11:02 < alex_i> I think, I meant, that thing is absent
11:02 < alex_i> ....in the book
11:04 < alex_i> Yeah... table
11:04 < alex_i> How much disk space is for minimal?
11:04 < tcr> _bg_, so they burden up the pkg maintainer? Possibly, true.
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11:06 < tcr> Maybe the only possibility that guarantees to work in all cases (except for the case when the human makes a mistake)
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11:06 < tcr> moin mnemoc
11:07 < tcr> alex_i, anyway best is you tell rxr, he's the maintainer of the handbook
11:09 < alex_i> k
11:13 < SMP> alex_i: minimal is less than 600 MB
11:14 < alex_i> That is space for sources+for build
11:18 < SMP> it's the size of the build output. you need some more space for the GEMs and the build of the respective package
11:19 < SMP> don't know how much for the required sources - probably around 200 MB
11:22 < alex_i> k
11:24 < _bg_> trc: well, i would not call it burden the pkg maintainer. 
11:25 < _bg_> you should have a look at the files the pkg wants to install anyway and as all files are owned by root normaly, you don't have to take any special actions
11:25 < _bg_> and files with sid/gid bits should not be packed blindly
11:26 < alex_i> It's in the boo
11:26 < _bg_> and if you want to it simple you can always do /bin/* (or even: find $RPM_BUILD_DIR -t file)
11:27 < alex_i> In the ch19
11:27 < _bg_> for the file list (you will not make it through my review, if i were maintainer with such a line but you could)
11:27 < _bg_> s/)$/ try)/
11:29 < alex_i> tcr: Not what I said in that ch, though
11:35 < tcr> _bg_: Agreed.
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12:23 * netrunner building hppa kernel for the 20th time, still some modules failing, subsequently adding them as disabled :/
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12:43 < daja77> netrunner: my build failed building 0-gcc3 ...
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13:21 < cchamilt_> HEY WOW
13:21 < cchamilt_> Just saw something on CNN, Cuba is defending it's human rights record.  The diplomat brought up a presentation on Windows.
13:22 < cchamilt_> It is still illegal for Microsoft to sell to Cuba...
13:22 < cchamilt_> How did they get the copy?
13:23 < mnemoc> before the revolution :p
13:23 < cchamilt_> I wonder if someone could get someone in trouble for this.
13:24 < cchamilt_> Windows61?
13:27 < alex_i> Did got it in the embassy outside ;)
13:32 < cchamilt_> OK, googling I see that there are 'partnership' loop holes that allow exporting of technology.  So why is it illegal for any US company if the big ones can get around it?
13:33 < cchamilt_> Why is SCO beating this antiUS crap so hard if it is BS?
13:35 < mnemoc> SCO likes BS
13:35 < cchamilt_> Basically Microsoft lets Cuba pirate their software so they can keep the market, just in case and are not breaking the law.
13:36 < cchamilt_> Can we say Linux was 'pirated' by Cuba?
13:36 < daja77> nope
13:37 < cchamilt_> Well, I guess the license doesn't restrict it specifically.
13:37 < cchamilt_> As long as there is no proof they downloaded it from US mirrors it is probably OK.
13:37 < daja77> yep and it is easy to find non us mirrors
13:38 < cchamilt_> The US commerce dept needs a clue.
13:38 < cchamilt_> Oh well, I'll stop ranting.
13:38 < daja77> why :)
13:39 < cchamilt_> Jocelyn is complaining about my complaining.
13:39 < daja77> rofl
13:39 < daja77> women are like that sometimes
13:39 < mnemoc> that's what wife are for
13:39 < daja77> mnemoc: hm in that case i need one i guess
13:39 < blindy> now just start complaining about her complaining have you a nice recursive loop :)
13:39 < daja77> hehe
13:40 < mnemoc> pretty common loop :p
13:40 < alex_i> mnemoc: Please, don't offend women.
13:40 < cchamilt_> now she is mad i mentioned her. i cant win.
13:40 < daja77> cchamilt_: no you can't
13:40 < owl> moin
13:41 < daja77> speaking of the devil ...
13:41 < blindy> no man con win against women
13:41 < blindy> it's like nome law of nature or some such
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13:41 < daja77> blindy: frustrated?
13:42 < laga> moin
13:42 < blindy> daja77: yeah, but not about this
13:42 < daja77> blindy: haven't you had two of them in your flat recently=
13:42 < mnemoc> two??!!
13:42 < owl> blindy: welcome in the club of frustrated people. what are you frustrated about?
13:42 < daja77> erhm yes iirc
13:43 < daja77> owl doesn't count in this matter
13:43 < blindy> daja77: don't remember me... please... just don't...
13:43 < mnemoc> "why a man can't never win an arguing against a woman"
13:43 < daja77> her flag for frustration is hardwired to on
13:43 < daja77> blindy: k. ...
13:44 < daja77> mnemoc: dunno i often win ^^
13:44 < mnemoc> :(
13:44 < blindy> daja77: I've started filling my Cocktail Bar with alcoholic things after that weekend
13:44 < daja77> O_o
13:44 < daja77> that bad?
13:44 < daja77> omg
13:45 < blindy> even worse, actually
13:45 < owl> <-- going to die (hopefully)
13:45 < daja77> guys please don't tell me evil stories just one hour before my next date
13:46 < blindy> daja77: actually, one of the two looked like a guy... a guy you don't want to meet at night in dark corners
13:46 < daja77> oergs
13:46 < blindy> an both - when together - behaved like two pre-school children
13:46 < daja77> you didn't know them before
13:46 < blindy> I know one of them before
13:46 < blindy> and I really liked her back then
13:47 < daja77> the guy?
13:47 < blindy> the other
13:47 < daja77> mnemoc: wanna learn ;)
13:48 < daja77> hm
13:48 < mnemoc> oh
13:49 < daja77> what works best is to tell her that she is absolutely right when it is obvious that she isn't
13:49 < mnemoc> by contradiction?
13:50 < daja77> yep sth like
13:50 < daja77> that
13:50 < mnemoc> i'll try to do that
13:50 < daja77> hehe
13:51 < daja77> anyway, have to do some shopping now, cu later
14:11 < StefanG_> moin :)
14:12 ::: StefanG_ is now known as StefanG
14:12 < StefanG> thats better :)
14:14 < mnemoc> hi StefanG_
14:14 < mnemoc> :p
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15:17 < alex_i> bye
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16:45 * netrunner back from shopping. bought clothes, icecream and counterstrike
16:45 * netrunner feels female ;)
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17:04 ::: plasma is now known as plasma-
17:06 < owl> *rotfl* 
17:09 ::: plasma- is now known as plasma
17:10 ::: plasma is now known as plasma-
17:15 < owl> wtf is going on with plasma- ?
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17:16 < mnemoc> WhoTF is plasma-? :)
17:17 < owl> *g* or so
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17:17 < owl> mnemoc: you called the devil again
17:17 < plasma-> I was messing with my nick on the nick server and did't know it was broad casting it 
17:18 < mnemoc> :)
17:19 < mnemoc> plasma-: i you want to do that left all the channels first
17:20 < plasma-> thanks, now i know
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17:23 < iceblox> hm...
17:24 < mnemoc> iceblox?
17:26 < iceblox> I wonder what I would need to change to fix those hppa compile errors
17:27 < mnemoc> i have never played with hppa :) which errors?
17:28 < blindy> hi hi and rehi
17:28 < iceblox> oh, I pasted it 2 days ago, right now I am not at home and have no access to the error log... something about an illegal define and that I should use -fPIC, was in tools.cross/isntall-wrapper iirc
17:29 < mnemoc> hi blindy 
17:30 < mnemoc> iceblox: in architecture/hppa you can set special cc options like that
17:31 < iceblox> ah, thx, I'll take a look at that on monday :)
17:37 < netrunner> iceblox: did you compile _on_ a hppa?
17:37 * netrunner is currently cross-building for hppa ... fighting with the kernel.
17:38 < iceblox> yes, i did compile on a hppa :)
17:38 < netrunner> oh, nice
17:38 < netrunner> mine would be to slow for that, I guess :)
17:39 < iceblox> mine is only a slow 100mhz one ;)
17:39 < netrunner> which model?
17:39 < iceblox> a 712 and a 715XC
17:39 * netrunner has a visualize b132L
17:40 < iceblox> hm, that one is probably faster than mine are ;)
17:42 < iceblox> hm, it is faster, the large l1 cache hasn't such a huge impact :)
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19:39 * netrunner adding audacity
19:40 < tfing> netrunner: https://www.rocklinux.net/submaster/smadm.cgi?i=2004031407431417408
19:40 < tfing> audacity is already in that patch
19:42 * netrunner cursing loud on that patch queue.
19:42 < tfing> yep :/
19:42 < netrunner> tfing: but that patch is not nice, it's not one-per-issue 
19:43 < tfing> i know, but you can filterdiff'it ;)
19:56 < netrunner> hm, audacity fails here!> collect2: ld returned 1 exit statu
20:06 < mnemoc> hi
20:07 < mnemoc> what was the fix to cron to allow user crontabs?
20:11 < mnemoc> crontab is o+s, var/spool/cron/crontabs looks fine... aarg... /me tries to kick his own head
20:12 * laga_ helps kicking
20:12 < mnemoc> thanks :)
20:19 < mnemoc> uhm.... anyone running a _very_recient_ version of rock to test crontab -e as luser?
20:20 < tfing> mnemoc: the debian package does some chgrp'ing in its postinst phase
20:21 < tfing> i think we should do the same
20:22 < mnemoc> http://www.rocklinux.net/lurker/message/20040119.105647.53c922b0.html 
20:22 < mnemoc> this solution was proposed but it don't seem to be applied
20:23 < tfing> it is not indeed, and i am not sure it is a very safe method
20:24 < tfing> i looked at this problem yesterday
20:25 < tfing> since we use the debian patch, we should follow the debian way for this package
20:25 < mnemoc> mail sent
20:26 < tcr> Anyone knows what package libao is in?
20:26 < tfing> in oggvorbis
20:27 < mnemoc> i'll have to go...
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21:32 < ncrfgs> hi
21:32 < ncrfgs> is anyone here?
21:33 < tcr> ack
21:33 < ncrfgs> syn
21:35 < ncrfgs> tcr, ok
21:36 < ncrfgs> tcr, well is rock linux project alive?
21:36 < ncrfgs> tcr, I gave a look at the homepage
21:36 < ncrfgs> tcr, documentation and "philosophy" look great and are interesting but it looks a bit outdated
21:37 < ncrfgs> (well slackware homepage is outdated and rocks tough...)
21:38 < tcr> Well, given that 36 persons are here...
21:38 < tcr> (I admit, that doesn't have to say much... irc zombies are quite frequently to be met)
21:38 < ncrfgs> tcr, which kernel and xfree are you using?
21:39 < ncrfgs> (I suppose you're on a Rock Linux enabled system, aren't you?)
21:39 < tcr> with you, do you mean me or what version ROCK uses
21:39 < ncrfgs> tcr, both =)
21:40 < tcr> well look at rocklinux.net/packages/
21:42 < mnemoc> tcr: you love to give vague answers :)
21:42 < darix> tcr: /join #gentoo ;)
21:43 < mnemoc> oh... that filemanager has a irc channel?? amazing :p
21:43 < darix> mnemoc: yeah ;)
21:43 < ncrfgs> mnemoc, :D
21:44 < blindy> well, just like finnish orgasm sites aren't blocked in any filtering proxy ;)
21:44 < tcr> ncrfgs, you should generally look at mailinglist when you're judging whether or not something's alive
21:45 < tcr> Or at things like live changelogs
21:46 < ncrfgs> tcr, well you're right
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22:01 < darix> i normally check bugtrackers -> no bugs -> no users -> dead ;)
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22:08 < giftnuss> good evening1
22:09 < mnemoc> our bugtracker is there only to say we have one
22:11 < giftnuss> I didn't find any BUG, today. I only make to many mistakes by myself.
22:11 < mnemoc> good :)
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22:17 < giftnuss> We (micha and me) prepare dictd for rock. micha becomes the new maintainer for freedict and we will get this project into rock. It runs but I don't now how to handle the different dictionaries (each in his own package would round 40 new ROCK packages) and how to update the the dict.conf after installing a dictionary.  
22:18 < daja77> re
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22:22 < giftnuss> sorry dictd.conf - 
22:24 < mnemoc> i think proper is 40 packages but you will have a problem with dictd.conf
22:24 < mnemoc> bbl
22:24 < giftnuss> debian use a update script which comes with server - what is the usual way for ROCK
22:26 < giftnuss> micha think so
22:27 < tfing> you can make a stone module for it
22:28 < giftnuss> thats an idea
22:32 < giftnuss> dictd package is finished today.
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--- Log closed Son Mr 28 00:00:08 2004