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--- Log opened Mon Jul 12 00:00:57 2004 02:45 -!- mistik1 [rasta@ool-44c02704.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:46 -!- mistik1 [rasta@ool-44c02704.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #rocklinux 04:02 -!- blindcoder [~blindcode@pD958F761.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 04:02 -!- blindy [~blindcode@p54803C63.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:02 -!- blindcoder is now known as blindy 04:46 -!- nookie [~nookie@M216P003.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 05:17 -!- Netsplit saberhagen.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: netrunner, jsaw, rolla, nookie, th, dsoul 05:18 -!- Netsplit over, joins: nookie, netrunner, rolla, dsoul, th, jsaw 06:09 -!- MightyJoeYoung [~lowks@219.93.24.31] has joined #rocklinux 06:45 -!- nookie_ [~nookie@M398P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 07:02 -!- nookie [~nookie@M216P003.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45 -!- Lorini_ [~Andrea@stdw-wh-vip63.studentenwerk-bielefeld.de] has joined #RockLinux 07:50 -!- link_ [~sascha@adsl.xan.ch] has joined #rocklinux 07:51 < rxr> moin 07:51 [Users #rocklinux] 07:51 [ _Lewellyn] [ Freak ] [ luckz ] [ nookie_] [ StefanG ] 07:51 [ blindy ] [ jsaw ] [ MightyJoeYoung] [ owl ] [ tfing ] 07:51 [ daja77 ] [ kasc ] [ mistik1 ] [ rolla ] [ th ] 07:51 [ dsoul ] [ link_ ] [ mnemoc ] [ rxr ] [ togg ] 07:51 [ esden ] [ Lorini ] [ netcrow ] [ SMP ] [ true ] 07:51 [ fake ] [ Lorini_] [ netrunner ] [ squeegy] [ valentin] 07:51 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 30 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 30 normal] 07:53 -!- MightyJoeYoung [~lowks@219.93.24.31] has quit [Client Quit] 07:53 < Lorini_> moin 08:03 -!- Lorini [~Andrea@stdw-wh-vip63.studentenwerk-bielefeld.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05 < rxr> moin Lorini_ 08:19 < blindy> moin 08:19 < blindy> mnemoc: I'm not going back. At least not yet. 08:20 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-9-151.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux 08:20 < De_Elsasser> good morning rock 08:22 < blindy> gug De_Elsasser 08:22 < rxr> moin De_Elsasser 08:23 < De_Elsasser> blindy and rxr/ 08:23 < De_Elsasser> :two fruehaufteher 08:24 < blindy> no, @work 08:24 < De_Elsasser> a, sooy 08:24 < De_Elsasser> merdedede 08:24 < De_Elsasser> sorry 08:25 < De_Elsasser> I am not awack 08:30 < blindy> yes, I can easily see that :) 08:33 < De_Elsasser> gfeqfrtgvc 08:34 < De_Elsasser> so, I seems better? 08:48 < daja77> moin 08:48 * daja77 just downloaded ne rocklinux wallpaper 08:49 < blindy> moin daja77 08:49 < daja77> moin blindy 08:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EAA5D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 09:04 < blindy> brb 09:10 < blindy> re 09:13 < dsoul> hi blindy 09:19 < blindy> moin dsoul 09:23 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 09:26 < blindy> rxr, valentin: any experiences with Berlikomm? 09:31 -!- BoS [~BoS@dialin-145-254-071-180.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux 09:46 * rxr not ... 09:46 < rxr> blindy: what is your current status? I read s.th. yesterday that you will not stay in berlin? 09:53 < blindy> rxr: it is not yet sure 09:53 < blindy> rxr: The decision here at Siemens is not yet made 09:54 < daja77> blindy likes to entertain us with this thrilling story ;) 09:54 < blindy> rxr: the deal with my employer is this: I will work here for 4 weeks without Siemens having to pay for it, then a decision has to be made 09:54 < blindy> rxr: and these 4 weeks end on this weeks' Friday 09:55 < blindy> rxr: so I don't think that a decision will be made before Thursday 09:55 < blindy> daja77: sure do, I have a great phantasy :) 09:55 < daja77> :D 09:55 < blindy> rxr: but seeing as there are 4 projects planned for over the next 2.5 months I guess that chances are good for me to stay here 09:58 < blindy> and I sure hope I do. Been back at my parents' for a weekend a week ago and I couldn't wait leaving it again! 09:58 < daja77> *gg* 10:05 < blindy> 3,5 Zimmer fuer 430 EUR Warmmiete? 10:05 < blindy> For that price you wouldn't get a closet in Munich! 10:35 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EAA5D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has joined #rocklinux 11:02 < De_Elsasser> hello daja77: how does the enlightenment works? 11:02 < daja77> no idea 11:02 < De_Elsasser> e17 ... 11:04 < daja77> <- off 11:04 < De_Elsasser> there is "Use entrance e17..." in stone but you can clic it 11:18 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-9-151.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-33-25.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux 11:56 -!- DeElsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-28-87.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux 11:57 < DeElsasser> the "entrance" is nice, but it's all... 12:00 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux 12:07 < rxr> DeElsasser: what are you talking about ? 12:07 < rxr> just some half sentences do not help answering questions ... 12:08 < DeElsasser> rxr: e17 12:09 < DeElsasser> i want to make it turn, but it want not 12:10 < rxr> turn ?!?! 12:11 < rxr> well - the window manager is not yet finished - only the framwork and applications take shape 12:11 < rxr> like entrance, evidence, ... 12:11 < rxr> e17 the windowmanager is still a way to go 12:11 < DeElsasser> yes I know 12:11 < DeElsasser> but i can't test it 12:12 < DeElsasser> he give me the "entrance" when i load it from another manager 12:13 < DeElsasser> and then nothing 12:13 < DeElsasser> i come back 12:14 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-33-25.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15 < DeElsasser> stone will have a e17 option menu, but it doesn't [*] 12:15 * DeElsasser is going snif... 12:19 < DeElsasser> rxr: you are the maintener, he he... 12:20 < rxr> yes - but I'm off the the bank and such in some seconds 12:20 < rxr> just dump text here - or write me a mail 12:20 < rxr> cu later 12:20 < rxr> regarding stone: maybe you use the wrong key 12:20 < rxr> you need enter or so - not space ... 12:31 -!- pla^net [~sack@dynadsl-080-228-95-023.ewetel.net] has joined #rocklinux 12:37 -!- pla^net [~sack@dynadsl-080-228-95-023.ewetel.net] has quit ["peace yallz ;o)"] 12:42 * rxr needs a new printer - my ink-jet printouts look really ugly ... 12:42 < rxr> cu later 12:48 < blindy> bye rxr 13:27 < rxr> rehi 13:28 < daja77> wb rxr 13:28 < blindy> wb 13:29 * rxr in the kitchen for lunch ... 13:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548799DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 14:04 < DeElsasser> daja77 ? 14:04 < daja77> yes 14:05 < DeElsasser> a little question :-] 14:05 < DeElsasser> how can I receive mail (without mozilla..] 14:06 < daja77> using another client? 14:06 < DeElsasser> ex: emacs 14:06 < daja77> kmail, evolution, sylpheed, mutt, whatever 14:06 < DeElsasser> emacs ,no? 14:07 < tcr> Gnus 14:07 < daja77> is a newsreader? 14:07 < DeElsasser> or mutt, lest go... 14:07 < DeElsasser> tcr ? 14:08 < daja77> gnus is an emacs extension for handling news afaik, perhaps mail too 14:08 < tcr> Both, I think 14:08 < DeElsasser> yep 14:09 < DeElsasser> but, befor, how get the mail 14:09 < DeElsasser> sendmail? 14:10 < rxr> some clients retreive and send them directly 14:11 < rxr> e.g. kmail, evolution, sylpheed, ... 14:11 < rxr> if you do not want to use it you need e.g. fetchmail and s.th. like exim, postfix, qmail or sendmail 14:12 < rxr> but when you just have a desktop computer I do not recommend this - just use a client that is sending directly .. 14:12 < rxr> sending and receiving 14:12 < DeElsasser> what in text from? 14:13 < tcr> Well, there's also pushmail which just forwards to the server of your email provider 14:19 < rxr> DeElsasser: you want a text client? 14:19 < DeElsasser> yep 14:19 < DeElsasser> mutt? 14:20 < rxr> duno 14:20 < DeElsasser> but how configure it? 14:20 < rxr> mew in {x,}emacs can do this 14:20 < rxr> duno if mutt does support it ... 14:20 < rxr> if not use fetchmail / pushmail or so - or configure a full MTA like exim or so if you like 14:20 < rxr> but this can be some work to get working 14:21 < rxr> I do not recommend sendmail - rather use exim, postfix, qmail or whatever .. 14:21 < rxr> or sendmail if you like it for some reason 14:34 < netrunner> mutt can be configured to pop3 or imap mail, but for sending it uses the /usr/bin/mail iirc 14:45 -!- nookie [~nookie@M213P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 15:02 -!- nookie_ [~nookie@M398P020.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16 < DeElsasser> ok exim is running and now? 15:24 < rxr> tell your MUA (mutt or whatever) to use the localhost 15:24 < rxr> and use fetchmail to get your mails or so ... 15:25 < rxr> there are many manuals for that on the net 15:26 < BoS> rxr: which architecture supported rock? 15:28 < netrunner> https://www.rocklinux.org/arch.html 15:29 < BoS> thx netrunner 15:32 < DeElsasser> so and now ladies and gentleman... 15:33 < DeElsasser> ... I must go walking 15:33 < netrunner> BoS: hppa is missing ... 15:33 < daja77> yeah have fun 15:33 < daja77> *cough* indeed 15:33 < daja77> and it is not really supported yet ... 15:33 < DeElsasser> daja77 :-[ 15:33 < netrunner> daja77: it is 'heavily worked on' as the others ;) 15:34 < daja77> DeElsasser: all i wanted to say was enjoy 15:34 < DeElsasser> snif 15:34 < daja77> netrunner: *gg* 15:34 < netrunner> damn. drove 40km to listen to the n^e th lecture about pk-cryptography :( 15:34 < daja77> DeElsasser: at least give it a try 15:36 < rxr> https://forum.counter-strike.de/bb/thread.php?TID=60663 15:37 * netrunner does not think is funny and worth enough that I now get it pasted for a week and >twice a day. 15:37 < BoS> daja77: and hppa ? 15:43 < netrunner> BoS: as I said, it is 'heavily worked on' :) 15:44 < BoS> :) - i know 15:48 < netrunner> wahoo, fixed gtkmm12 for gcc34 :) 15:48 < netrunner> now I hope this was the last barrier for fwbuilder :) 15:52 < mnemoc> moin 15:52 < netrunner> hi mnemoc 15:53 < rxr> moin mnemoc 15:53 < mnemoc> moin netrunner, rxr 15:55 < BoS> moin moin 15:55 < mnemoc> moin BoS 15:57 < BoS> re mnemoc 15:57 < BoS> :) 15:59 < daja77> gtkmm, how i hate these packages 15:59 < daja77> BoS: ? 16:00 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14 < netrunner> cool, fwbuilder compiles out of the box with gcc3.4 :) 16:22 < mnemoc> it is not too hard to code gcc3.4-aware 16:22 < mnemoc> hi daja77 16:24 * netrunner now switching lecture, this is boring (now talking about kerberos) 16:33 -!- Netsplit saberhagen.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: jsaw, netrunner, rolla, squeegy, nookie, BoS, link_, th, true, dsoul, (+1 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 16:33 -!- Netsplit saberhagen.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: owl, tfing, blindy, daja77, valentin, netcrow, Freak, fake, esden, hannes_, (+9 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 16:34 -!- Netsplit over, joins: nookie, tcr, DeElsasser, hannes_, BoS, link_, Lorini_, jsaw, th, dsoul (+20 more) 16:35 -!- luckz [luckz@luckz.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35 -!- luckz [luckz@luckz.de] has joined #rocklinux 16:39 -!- Netsplit saberhagen.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: netrunner, jsaw, rolla, owl, tfing, blindy, valentin, daja77, squeegy, netcrow, (+21 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 16:39 -!- Netsplit over, joins: luckz, nookie, tcr, DeElsasser, hannes_, BoS, link_, Lorini_, jsaw, th (+21 more) 16:46 < mnemoc> ansi-c allows function overloading? 16:50 < tcr> mnemoc, Nope. Sure you did mean C and not C++? 16:51 < mnemoc> i said old-ansi-c ;) 16:51 < mnemoc> to build even in the most pathetic c compiler ;) 16:51 < tcr> You may be able to come up with some cpp kludge 16:53 < mnemoc> on that pathetic c complier? 16:55 < tcr> I don't think it's possible to do in any convenient way anyway 16:56 < tcr> The cpp doesn't seem to be capable of any kind of dispatch-on-type in any way 16:57 < tcr> there's missing some typeof() primitive, unfortunately. 16:58 < tcr> It'd be possible to *explicitely* tell the type by passing it to some macro, but then you could just use the convention of appending the type, on which a routine operates on. 16:58 < tcr> So it'd be a no-win scenario 17:01 < mnemoc> last question: is l->count++ valid c? 17:01 -!- kasc_ [kasc@dsl-082-083-043-019.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux 17:02 < mnemoc> i.e., i am increasing the content or the pointer? 17:02 < tcr> Yes. But there you go with a language with something aweful as priorites of operators 17:03 < tcr> mnemoc, Which pointer? 17:03 < tcr> Remember, a->b is nothing but syntactic sugar for (*a).b 17:04 < mnemoc> l->count++ == l->count = (l->count+1) 17:04 < mnemoc> or l->count++ = l->field_after_count 17:04 < tcr> mnemoc, OTOH, if you as writer struggle to get those priorities right, better explicitely specify the order of computation by setting parenth's 17:05 < tcr> l->count++ is the same as (*l).count++, and ++ has a higher prio than . methinks. 17:05 < mnemoc> (l->count)++ will not increase count on the structure, or am i wrong? 17:06 < mnemoc> (*l).count++ may work... 17:07 < tcr> mnemoc, What are you doing anyway? 17:08 < mnemoc> in this particular case coding a generic list 17:09 < rxr> l->count++ is valid ANSI C 17:09 < tcr> None said something different 17:10 < rxr> mnemoc: asked for it - and did not got a real answer 17:10 < mnemoc> i doubt is it it does what it should ;) 17:10 < rxr> -> has a higher priority - so ++ is done last ... 17:11 < tcr> rxr: I answered his question with a "yes", what's not a real answer there? 17:11 < mnemoc> on the structure or on the 'copied' data? 17:11 < rxr> this is enforced by the standard - nearly any C-style code out there does it somewhere ... 17:11 < mnemoc> i'll do the same then :) 17:11 < rxr> tcr: ah - ok I overread a line while cross-reading ... 17:12 < tcr> mnemoc, l->count++ *is the same* as (*l).count++, so it increments the integer (or whatever it is) `count' 17:12 < tcr> rxr: no problem 17:12 < rxr> mnemoc: this is also no gray area, it is well defined 17:13 -!- kasc [kasc@dsl-213-023-190-167.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13 -!- kasc_ is now known as kasc 17:18 < mnemoc> free( NULL ) is also well defined in old-pathetic c-compilers? 17:22 < rxr> ouhm - unsure 17:22 < rxr> depends on the C library 17:23 < rxr> GLibC says: 17:23 < rxr> If ptr is NULL, no operation is performed. 17:23 < rxr> the kernel kfree is also defined this way ... 17:26 < tcr> rxr: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's actually good not to explicitely specify the order. Think of something like *ptr++ or whatever (can't think of any better example) 17:27 -!- link_ [~sascha@adsl.xan.ch] has quit ["leaving"] 17:27 < rxr> tcr: why to mix extra characters in when it is well defined for 20 year to write such stuff fast - without many keystrokes? 17:27 < tcr> Actually free(NULL) is *defined* in the ANSI standard to do nothing; I'm not sure when that has been put in, but most C libraries does not seem to adhere to that, so better write your own version of free, mnemoc. 17:28 < mnemoc> keystrokes-economic principles ;) 17:28 < tcr> rxr: Simply, because code is more often read than written. 17:28 < rxr> any C newby can read this 17:28 < tcr> That's bullshit 17:29 * mnemoc got confused with l->count++ :'( 17:29 < rxr> tcr: com' on - don't tell me *prt++ is hard 17:29 < mnemoc> .oO( considreing i started coding c at 7 that confusing is humiliating )o 17:30 < rxr> tcr: just because you like colorful languages like: ptr.dereference().increment() or so ... 17:30 < tcr> There are people out there who have to do more important thing than to learn the precendence list of some language 17:32 < tcr> I don't like those. Way too much syntax :P 17:33 < mnemoc> :p 17:33 -!- MadTux [~mike@master.hack-solutions.com] has joined #rocklinux 17:34 < MadTux> hello. 17:34 -!- squeegy [~squeegy@mars.diminishing.org] has left #rocklinux [] 17:35 < rxr> hi MadTux 17:35 [Users #rocklinux] 17:35 [ _Lewellyn ] [ esden ] [ Lorini_] [ netrunner] [ StefanG] [ valentin] 17:35 [ blindy ] [ fake ] [ luckz ] [ nookie ] [ tcr ] 17:35 [ BoS ] [ Freak ] [ MadTux ] [ owl ] [ tfing ] 17:35 [ daja77 ] [ hannes_] [ mistik1] [ rolla ] [ th ] 17:35 [ DeElsasser] [ jsaw ] [ mnemoc ] [ rxr ] [ togg ] 17:35 [ dsoul ] [ kasc ] [ netcrow] [ SMP ] [ true ] 17:35 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 31 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 31 normal] 17:35 < tcr> rxr: My point was simply that it sometimes is better to explicitely specifiy stuff. Not more. 17:36 < rxr> yes - sometime - but not with such simple examples ... 17:36 < tcr> Think of perl as an extreme, for example. It has a priority table of 24x24 operators or something similiar of that magnitude. 17:38 < rxr> you do not need to argrue about perl with me - i'm not a fan of it either 17:39 < mnemoc> hi MadTux 17:47 < tcr> rxr: I personally consider *ptr++ to be a very good example. Why don't you think it's worth to put the parentheses in there just to ease the effort of decrypting of you or anyone else who looks at the code? It makes it clearer on the first glance. Yes, I know that it's relatively likely that you ran across this, so that your brain probably already set up some sort of pattern matcher for it -- but OTOH you put it in there for times where you're men 17:47 < tcr> tally not as fit as usually (for example when you're coding long into the night) 17:47 < tcr> s/of you or anyone else/for you or anyone else/ 17:49 < daja77> re 17:49 < rxr> tcr: for decoding more braces you even need more patterns ;-) 17:53 < tcr> mnemoc, BTW. Have you looked into libhackerlab if there's not a generic list type in it? 17:54 < mnemoc> i have never read libhackerlab code :) 18:06 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548799DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09 -!- esden [~esdentem@apeiron-group.de] has quit ["Changing server"] 18:10 -!- esdentem [~esdentem@apeiron-group.de] has joined #rocklinux 18:10 -!- esdentem is now known as esden 18:11 -!- netrunner [~andreas@pD9E8D1B3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:11 -!- netrunner [~andreas@pD9E8D866.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #rocklinux 18:18 -!- netcrow [~netcrow@2001:8d8:80:11:0:0:0:4d] has quit ["leaving"] 18:19 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has joined #rocklinux 18:21 -!- netcrow [~netcrow@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:32cb] has joined #rocklinux 18:28 < mnemoc> yeah!... my first C program in years and segfalt in the second line :\ 18:30 * mnemoc looking at libhackerlab 18:32 < daja77> hi mnemoc 18:33 < mnemoc> hi daja77 18:33 < mnemoc> :p ... s/=/==/ 18:34 < daja77> hehe 19:50 -!- Netsplit saberhagen.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: hannes_ 19:51 -!- Netsplit over, joins: hannes_ 19:52 < rolla> re 19:54 < MadTux> ra 19:54 < MadTux> ;) 19:55 < daja77> hey MadTux 19:55 < MadTux> heya 19:56 < mnemoc> hi tuxie 20:16 < fake> away 20:16 < fake> n 20:17 < fake> gmornin 20:17 < owl> remoin 20:31 -!- nookie_ [~nookie@M504P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 20:39 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548794D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux 20:51 * fake is freezing 20:53 -!- nookie [~nookie@M213P019.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:01 -!- _Lewellyn [tribalis@c-24-4-235-168.client.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:02 -!- Lorini [~Andrea@stdw-wh-vip63.studentenwerk-bielefeld.de] has joined #RockLinux 21:03 -!- Lorini [~Andrea@stdw-wh-vip63.studentenwerk-bielefeld.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:09 -!- tfing_ [~tfing@APoitiers-103-1-4-105.w81-48.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux 21:26 -!- tfing [~tfing@APoitiers-103-1-5-184.w80-13.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26 -!- tfing_ is now known as tfing 21:29 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-21-8.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux 21:29 < De_Elsasser> halihalo 21:30 < MadTux> :) 21:30 < daja77> wb De_Elsasser 21:31 < De_Elsasser> is it a long time a was away? 21:31 < daja77> a few hours 21:31 < De_Elsasser> hein? 21:32 < daja77> 6.5 hours 21:33 < De_Elsasser> ........... 21:37 < rxr> re 21:39 < mnemoc> rehi 21:39 -!- BoS_ [~BoS@dialin-145-254-190-212.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux 21:39 < MadTux> wb rxr 21:40 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:40 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has joined #rocklinux 21:41 < mnemoc> hi tuxie 21:42 < rxr> "In addition, RMS stated that the use of C++ was unacceptable for the GNU 21:42 < rxr> Project, at least for programs that are presently written in C. Let's 21:42 < rxr> please not discuss this here; whether you agree or disagree, please 21:42 < rxr> contact RMS directly, or find a GNU discussion group somewhere -- this 21:42 < rxr> list is for things to do with GCC." 21:42 < rxr> oh my god ... 21:42 < tcr> What's wrong with that? 21:43 < rxr> what has the langauage to do whether it is acceptable for the GNU project? 21:43 -!- DeElsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-28-87.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:43 < tcr> He's just sticking to the GNU constitution 21:43 < tcr> Official languages of the GNU Operating Systems are C and Lisp 21:44 < rxr> and this renders any other language unacceptable? 21:45 < tcr> Read what he wrote 21:45 < tcr> :) 21:45 < tcr> "use of C++ [...] for programs that are presently written in C" 21:46 < rxr> at least == mindestens 21:46 < rxr> he thinks so in general - but can only enforce it for programs that have already been started in C 21:47 < tcr> So what's wrong with that? 21:47 < jsaw> re 21:47 < jsaw> hi all! 21:47 < mnemoc> hi jsaw 21:47 < daja77> hi jsaw 21:47 < tcr> rxr: With the "at least" he differentates between personal opinion as individual and decision making as the GNU father 21:48 < tcr> It's actually quite kind and profession of him, don't you think? 21:48 < tcr> moin jsaw 21:49 < rxr> tcr: however you belive 21:49 -!- BoS [~BoS@dialin-145-254-071-180.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:49 < rxr> hi jsaw ! 21:49 < tcr> That was a honest question for your own opinion. Why so defensive? 21:50 -!- nookie [~nookie@M398P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 21:50 < jsaw> rxr: are you sure the "at least" in this sentence does not mean "zumindest" 21:51 < tcr> jsaw, ACK! That was how I perceived his "mindestens", however, too. 21:52 < rxr> however - it at least shows his basic notion that C is the language to go - and C++ in some way would polute the GNU project 21:53 < daja77> how that 21:53 < MadTux> rxr: well as it said in the text.. maybe u would like to mail rms about it? 21:53 < jsaw> .oO(the semantic part of my brain feels that "zumindest" implies a upper limit, while "mindestens" implies a lower limit...might be wrong though) 21:54 < rxr> no - I just wanted to paste the interesting snip here 21:54 < daja77> zumindest is no upper bound 21:54 < rxr> and I do not want to discuss it - I have stuff to do 21:54 < daja77> k. :) 21:54 < jsaw> were can I read it? 21:54 < rxr> gcc mailing list 21:54 < jsaw> merci 21:54 < MadTux> rxr: ok ok, no need to take it on me! 21:55 < rxr> Subject: Converting GCC to compilation with C++ 21:55 < rxr> From: Mark Mitchell <mark@codesourcery.com> 21:55 < owl> MADTUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:55 < MadTux> SED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 21:55 < owl> *g* hi. how are you? 21:55 < MadTux> Great dear, and u ? 21:55 < rxr> MadTux: I did not want to take s.th. on you 21:55 < owl> MadTux: not so well. thx. 21:55 < MadTux> rxr okis. 21:55 < MadTux> owl: query 21:57 < tcr> jsaw, I think it depends on emphasis and interpretation from the reader 21:57 -!- nookie_ [~nookie@M504P017.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58 < tcr> Personally, I like his notion. I don't know C++, but it doesn't seem to be really that attractive to me. 21:59 < rxr> tcr: reread what you just wrote ,) 22:00 < tcr> rxr: Yes? 22:01 < rxr> you think s.th. you do not know is not really attractive for you - congratulations 22:01 < tcr> Don't put words in my mouth 22:02 < rxr> 21:58 < tcr> ... I don't know C++, but it doesn't seem to be really that attractive to me. 22:04 < tcr> So what? "it doesn't seem [...] to me". That's clearly a personal statement... I'm sorry that you fail to put any objective truth into my words, although I kinda take is as a compliment. :P 22:04 < rxr> tcr: what is your problem? 22:05 < rxr> hm - google: gnu official languages 22:05 < rxr> quite on top gimp ... 22:05 < rxr> tcr: I can not find the gnu page that lists C and LISP as official languages - do you have a link? 22:06 < tcr> Uhm, dunno where exactly I read that. Maybe GNU standard or GNU manifesto, I think. 22:10 < rxr> manifesto only has: 22:10 < rxr> "Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages." 22:11 < mnemoc> that's not exclusive. i'm not against c++ on gcc while it's used _only_ on the last stages of the build. i fear to not being able to build it without a `++ compiler 22:16 < rxr> ahah - the GNU project enforces Gtk+ and GNOME, good to know 22:16 * rxr killall kdeinit 22:17 < tcr> rxr: Ah, yes. That was what I read. 22:17 < tcr> rxr: What's your problem with that? 22:17 < rxr> tcr: do not get on my nerves - please 22:17 < rxr> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards_7.html 22:17 < rxr> ^- here they propagade C ... 22:18 < rxr> case set - no dicussison please 22:18 < rxr> thanks 22:18 * rxr off to read work 22:18 < tcr> rxr: The GNU OS needs a decision for a graphical user interfaces. That doesn't mean that you have to take that as granted. 22:18 < tcr> So stop your childish behaviour 22:18 < owl> grunz 22:19 < tcr> I'm sorry that I destroyed your view of RMS as your personal saviour 22:19 < tcr> He isn't. 22:19 < rxr> I do never had this view 22:19 < rxr> as if your bugging other people all the day here behaviour is not the childish one 22:19 < rxr> you flamewar on any post that does not fit with your mind here 22:21 * MadTux sits back, relax and keep reading :) 22:22 < tcr> Eh, you don't really think I'm flaming you, are you? 22:22 < tcr> I think you're subscribed to the GCC and LK mailinglist... Shouldn't your skin be a bit thicker? 22:23 < rxr> tcr: I already wrote that I do not want to waste more of my precious time with discussions with you 22:23 < rxr> tcr: so please do not feel angry if I continue to develop software in favour of talking to you 22:24 < tcr> Your problem with me is that I do have an own opinion, state it publically and that I do not step away from it. I think it may very well frustrate you that you have actually nothing to say 22:25 < rxr> no - the tone that your optionion is the only right one ... 22:25 < tcr> Otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive as you're are once I state my opinion 22:25 < tcr> If wouldn't think, I'd have some strong mental problems 22:25 < tcr> +so 22:25 < rxr> it is a joke that you believe I have nothing to say ... - but as you dream 22:26 < rxr> I think you are currently quite talking about the mirror in front of you 22:27 < tcr> If you state your opinion and I want you to back it up, you suddenly are very defensive as if I could do any harm to you 22:27 < jsaw> https://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/eristii.htm 22:27 < tcr> Defensive of your own person instead of defensive of your opinion 22:28 < tcr> rxr: See, I don't want to harm you, actually I'm at the moment trying to be constructive. 22:29 < daja77> roflmao 22:29 < jsaw> daja77: ? 22:30 < rxr> tcr: how does it come that you continue babling around while I a quater an hour ago aready told you that I do not mind hearing your stuff? 22:30 < tcr> rxr: There you see how goud-will I am 22:30 < rxr> hey stop - wait 22:30 < rxr> do not type 22:31 < rxr> I did not wanted to form a question - now I have you talking again ... 22:31 < rxr> damn 22:32 < tcr> You seem to misunderstand that when I tend to be convinced of my own opinion (which I would call natural) you perceive this as intolerance of your opinion. I can and will assure that this is not the case. 22:33 < tcr> When I'm asking you a question, while may very well be some rhetoric element, I'm actually interested in your opinion. But you seem to misinterpret that to the most evil and malicious intend imaginable 22:33 < tcr> Please, *please* Don't. 22:33 < daja77> omg! would you please stop that 22:34 * rxr just adding tcr psychology lesson to the headline over the ROCK Linux log files 22:35 < mnemoc> jsaw: thanks for the url 22:35 < tcr> Please take it serious. You should better learn not to relate things automatically to yourself. 22:35 < owl> jsaw: ! hi 22:36 < tcr> That'll make your life with people who are really nasty much more easier :) 22:36 < owl> grunz. 22:37 < tcr> Ich habe fertig. Hoping that you may end up thinking about what I said and maybe even taking something to your heart. 22:38 < jsaw> mnemoc: I read this years ago...and still drive my gf and many ppl crazy w/ this discussion style 22:38 < jsaw> hi owl 22:39 < rxr> jsaw: what is the problem with your discussion style? Never had one ... 22:39 < jsaw> read the url above 22:40 < rxr> I partly already read it - but I never had problems discussing with you 22:40 < jsaw> eristic dialectic (disputing in such a way as to hold one's own, whether one is in the right or the wrong - per fas et nefas.) 22:40 < tcr> rxr: Ah, sorry, I have to add something here on that line: A result of relating things to oneself and getting to easily distracted are the recent nasty discussion between you and cliff. 22:41 < tcr> There's an indication that it's actually your attitude problem not mine. 22:42 < daja77> hold on 22:42 < rxr> tcr: do you mind not beeing in the official ROCK Linux logs - so I can /ignore you? 22:42 < daja77> these were different 22:42 < jsaw> rxr: we never had a discussion were I was convinced that I should win it... 22:43 < rxr> jsaw: ,) 22:44 < tcr> daja77, Not necessarily. One said some small nasty thing, majorly about technology, but this small thing was related to oneself instead of dismished and so one replied in an even harsher tone. 22:44 * rxr off from the channel - since I can not use /ignore - cu later 22:44 < tcr> rxr: You don't need to :) 22:45 < tcr> rxr: I'm at end, right now. Promised. Have to go in some minutes anyway 22:45 < mnemoc> :) 22:46 < tcr> *But* please take the log and read it tomorrow again. And when reading try not to be biased and actually think through what I said. Just pretend that there must be some point in what I'm saying. 22:46 < jsaw> mnemoc: survived your 96h+ sleeplesness? obviously, but how? 22:51 < mnemoc> acupunture ;) 22:52 < tcr> jsaw, Don't misunderstand me. Actually I seem to be so pertinacious, because I'm pertinacious to be misproven, but by arguments not by handwaving. 22:52 < tcr> jsaw, Unfortunately I can't read all that now, I read the three first paragraphs, and the second one is very important 22:52 < jsaw> tcr, calm down. I just gave a hint about the way you are discussion (no pro no contra so far). 22:53 < jsaw> discussing *meep* *meep* 22:53 < jsaw> btw, 22:53 < tcr> "If human nature were not base, but thoroughly honourable, we should in every debate have no other aim than the discovery of truth; we should not in the least care whether the truth proved to be in favour of the opinion which we had begun by expressing, or of the opinion of our adversary." 22:54 < tcr> I actually try to stick to that. And all I want that other people try so, too 22:56 < tcr> jsaw, But thanks for that very interesting link. I'll print and read it tomorrow in the bus. 22:57 < rxr> damn gdb - again exited while executing a program with: 22:58 < rxr> I/O possible 23:07 < jsaw> tcr: btw, if you remove the basename from the url you get the TOC of the book 23:08 -!- nookie_ [~nookie@M507P007.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux 23:10 < jsaw> did anybody try a fresh build currently? 23:10 < rxr> jsaw: 2.0 yes 23:10 < jsaw> here it stops at 0-gcc34 (make: *** libiberty: No such file or directory. Stop.) 23:10 < rxr> jsaw: 2.1 also before the linux split 23:11 < jsaw> ah. 23:11 < rxr> jsaw: what gcc34 version? 23:11 < jsaw> HEAD 23:11 < jsaw> 3.4.12 23:11 < jsaw> s/2// 23:11 < rxr> fake: reported that 3.4.1 has such a defect and 3.4.0 works fine 23:20 < fake> jo 23:20 < fake> i also checked backwars. 3.3 is fine, too 23:20 < fake> the trick seems to be 23:21 < owl> wb fake 23:21 < fake> make configure-libiberty configure-gcc 23:21 < fake> or some such 23:21 * fake wasn't away? 23:21 < owl> aehm. k. 23:21 < fake> maybe there is also a configure-all ? 23:21 < fake> not sure. 23:27 -!- nookie [~nookie@M398P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:28 -!- MadTux [~mike@master.hack-solutions.com] has quit ["Oyasumi :)"] 23:52 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548794D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] --- Log closed Tue Jul 13 00:00:12 2004