--- Log opened Mon Jul 12 00:00:57 2004
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07:51 < rxr> moin
07:51 [Users #rocklinux]
07:51 [ _Lewellyn] [ Freak  ] [ luckz         ] [ nookie_] [ StefanG ] 
07:51 [ blindy   ] [ jsaw   ] [ MightyJoeYoung] [ owl    ] [ tfing   ] 
07:51 [ daja77   ] [ kasc   ] [ mistik1       ] [ rolla  ] [ th      ] 
07:51 [ dsoul    ] [ link_  ] [ mnemoc        ] [ rxr    ] [ togg    ] 
07:51 [ esden    ] [ Lorini ] [ netcrow       ] [ SMP    ] [ true    ] 
07:51 [ fake     ] [ Lorini_] [ netrunner     ] [ squeegy] [ valentin] 
07:51 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 30 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 30 normal]
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07:53 < Lorini_> moin
08:03 -!- Lorini [~Andrea@stdw-wh-vip63.studentenwerk-bielefeld.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
08:05 < rxr> moin Lorini_ 
08:19 < blindy> moin
08:19 < blindy> mnemoc: I'm not going back. At least not yet.
08:20 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-9-151.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux
08:20 < De_Elsasser> good morning rock
08:22 < blindy> gug De_Elsasser 
08:22 < rxr> moin De_Elsasser 
08:23 < De_Elsasser> blindy and rxr/
08:23 < De_Elsasser> :two fruehaufteher
08:24 < blindy> no, @work
08:24 < De_Elsasser> a, sooy
08:24 < De_Elsasser> merdedede
08:24 < De_Elsasser> sorry
08:25 < De_Elsasser> I am not awack
08:30 < blindy> yes, I can easily see that :)
08:33 < De_Elsasser> gfeqfrtgvc
08:34 < De_Elsasser> so, I seems better?
08:48 < daja77> moin
08:48  * daja77 just downloaded ne rocklinux wallpaper
08:49 < blindy> moin daja77 
08:49 < daja77> moin blindy 
08:50 -!- tcr [~tcr@pD9EAA5D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
09:04 < blindy> brb
09:10 < blindy> re
09:13 < dsoul> hi blindy 
09:19 < blindy> moin dsoul 
09:23 -!- ringo [ringo78@xs1.xs4all.nl] has joined #rocklinux
09:26 < blindy> rxr, valentin: any experiences with Berlikomm?
09:31 -!- BoS [~BoS@dialin-145-254-071-180.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
09:46  * rxr not ...
09:46 < rxr> blindy: what is your current status? I read s.th. yesterday that you will not stay in berlin?
09:53 < blindy> rxr: it is not yet sure
09:53 < blindy> rxr: The decision here at Siemens is not yet made
09:54 < daja77> blindy likes to entertain us with this thrilling story ;)
09:54 < blindy> rxr: the deal with my employer is this: I will work here for 4 weeks without Siemens having to pay for it, then a decision has to be made
09:54 < blindy> rxr: and these 4 weeks end on this weeks' Friday
09:55 < blindy> rxr: so I don't think that a decision will be made before Thursday
09:55 < blindy> daja77: sure do, I have a great phantasy :)
09:55 < daja77> :D
09:55 < blindy> rxr: but seeing as there are 4 projects planned for over the next 2.5 months I guess that chances are good for me to stay here
09:58 < blindy> and I sure hope I do. Been back at my parents' for a weekend a week ago and I couldn't wait leaving it again!
09:58 < daja77> *gg*
10:05 < blindy> 3,5 Zimmer fuer 430 EUR Warmmiete?
10:05 < blindy> For that price you wouldn't get a closet in Munich!
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11:02 < De_Elsasser> hello daja77: how does the enlightenment works?
11:02 < daja77> no idea
11:02 < De_Elsasser> e17 ...
11:04 < daja77> <- off
11:04 < De_Elsasser> there is "Use entrance e17..." in stone but you can clic it
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11:57 < DeElsasser> the "entrance" is nice, but it's all...
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12:07 < rxr> DeElsasser: what are you talking about ?
12:07 < rxr> just some half sentences do not help answering questions ...
12:08 < DeElsasser> rxr: e17
12:09 < DeElsasser> i want to make it turn, but it want not
12:10 < rxr> turn ?!?!
12:11 < rxr> well - the window manager is not yet finished - only the framwork and applications take shape
12:11 < rxr> like entrance, evidence, ...
12:11 < rxr> e17 the windowmanager is still a way to go
12:11 < DeElsasser> yes I know
12:11 < DeElsasser> but i can't test it
12:12 < DeElsasser> he give me the "entrance" when i load it from another manager
12:13 < DeElsasser> and then nothing
12:13 < DeElsasser> i come back
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12:15 < DeElsasser> stone will have a e17 option menu, but it doesn't [*] 
12:15  * DeElsasser is going snif...
12:19 < DeElsasser> rxr: you are the maintener, he he...
12:20 < rxr> yes - but I'm off the the bank and such in some seconds
12:20 < rxr> just dump text here - or write me a mail
12:20 < rxr> cu later
12:20 < rxr> regarding stone: maybe you use the wrong key
12:20 < rxr> you need enter or so - not space ...
12:31 -!- pla^net [~sack@dynadsl-080-228-95-023.ewetel.net] has joined #rocklinux
12:37 -!- pla^net [~sack@dynadsl-080-228-95-023.ewetel.net] has quit ["peace yallz ;o)"]
12:42  * rxr needs a new printer - my ink-jet printouts look really ugly ...
12:42 < rxr> cu later
12:48 < blindy> bye rxr
13:27 < rxr> rehi
13:28 < daja77> wb rxr 
13:28 < blindy> wb
13:29  * rxr in the kitchen for lunch ...
13:56 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548799DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #rocklinux
14:04 < DeElsasser> daja77 ?
14:04 < daja77> yes
14:05 < DeElsasser> a little question :-]
14:05 < DeElsasser> how can I receive mail (without mozilla..]
14:06 < daja77> using another client?
14:06 < DeElsasser> ex: emacs
14:06 < daja77> kmail, evolution, sylpheed, mutt, whatever
14:06 < DeElsasser> emacs ,no?
14:07 < tcr> Gnus
14:07 < daja77> is a newsreader?
14:07 < DeElsasser> or mutt, lest go...
14:07 < DeElsasser> tcr ?
14:08 < daja77> gnus is an emacs extension for handling news afaik, perhaps mail too
14:08 < tcr> Both, I think
14:08 < DeElsasser> yep
14:09 < DeElsasser> but, befor, how get the mail
14:09 < DeElsasser> sendmail?
14:10 < rxr> some clients retreive and send them directly
14:11 < rxr> e.g. kmail, evolution, sylpheed, ...
14:11 < rxr> if you do not want to use it you need e.g. fetchmail and s.th. like exim, postfix, qmail or sendmail
14:12 < rxr> but when you just have a desktop computer I do not recommend this - just use a client that is sending directly ..
14:12 < rxr> sending and receiving
14:12 < DeElsasser> what in text from?
14:13 < tcr> Well, there's also pushmail which just forwards to the server of your email provider
14:19 < rxr> DeElsasser: you want a text client?
14:19 < DeElsasser> yep
14:19 < DeElsasser> mutt?
14:20 < rxr> duno
14:20 < DeElsasser> but how configure it?
14:20 < rxr> mew in {x,}emacs can do this
14:20 < rxr> duno if mutt does support it ...
14:20 < rxr> if not use fetchmail / pushmail or so - or configure a full MTA like exim or so if you like
14:20 < rxr> but this can be some work to get working
14:21 < rxr> I do not recommend sendmail - rather use exim, postfix, qmail or whatever ..
14:21 < rxr> or sendmail if you like it for some reason
14:34 < netrunner> mutt can be configured to pop3 or imap mail, but for sending it uses the /usr/bin/mail iirc
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15:16 < DeElsasser> ok exim is running and now?
15:24 < rxr> tell your MUA (mutt or whatever) to use the localhost
15:24 < rxr> and use fetchmail to get your mails or so ...
15:25 < rxr> there are many manuals for that on the net
15:26 < BoS> rxr: which architecture supported rock?
15:28 < netrunner> http://www.rocklinux.org/arch.html
15:29 < BoS> thx netrunner 
15:32 < DeElsasser> so and now ladies and gentleman...
15:33 < DeElsasser> ... I must go walking
15:33 < netrunner> BoS: hppa is missing ...
15:33 < daja77> yeah have fun
15:33 < daja77> *cough* indeed
15:33 < daja77> and it is not really supported yet ...
15:33 < DeElsasser> daja77 :-[
15:33 < netrunner> daja77: it is 'heavily worked on' as the others ;)
15:34 < daja77> DeElsasser: all i wanted to say was enjoy
15:34 < DeElsasser> snif
15:34 < daja77> netrunner: *gg*
15:34 < netrunner> damn. drove 40km to listen to the n^e th lecture about pk-cryptography :(
15:34 < daja77> DeElsasser: at least give it a try
15:36 < rxr> http://forum.counter-strike.de/bb/thread.php?TID=60663
15:37  * netrunner does not think is funny and worth enough that I now get it pasted for a week and >twice a day.
15:37 < BoS> daja77: and hppa ?
15:43 < netrunner> BoS: as I said, it is 'heavily worked on' :)
15:44 < BoS> :) - i know
15:48 < netrunner> wahoo, fixed gtkmm12 for gcc34 :)
15:48 < netrunner> now I hope this was the last barrier for fwbuilder :)
15:52 < mnemoc> moin
15:52 < netrunner> hi mnemoc 
15:53 < rxr> moin mnemoc 
15:53 < mnemoc> moin netrunner, rxr
15:55 < BoS> moin moin
15:55 < mnemoc> moin BoS 
15:57 < BoS> re mnemoc 
15:57 < BoS> :)
15:59 < daja77> gtkmm, how i hate these packages
15:59 < daja77> BoS: ?
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16:14 < netrunner> cool, fwbuilder compiles out of the box with gcc3.4 :)
16:22 < mnemoc> it is not too hard to code gcc3.4-aware
16:22 < mnemoc> hi daja77 
16:24  * netrunner now switching lecture, this is boring (now talking about kerberos)
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16:46 < mnemoc> ansi-c allows function overloading?
16:50 < tcr> mnemoc, Nope. Sure you did mean C and not C++?
16:51 < mnemoc> i said old-ansi-c ;)
16:51 < mnemoc> to build even in the most pathetic c compiler ;)
16:51 < tcr> You may be able to come up with some cpp kludge
16:53 < mnemoc> on that pathetic c complier?
16:55 < tcr> I don't think it's possible to do in any convenient way anyway
16:56 < tcr> The cpp doesn't seem to be capable of any kind of dispatch-on-type in any way
16:57 < tcr> there's missing some typeof() primitive, unfortunately.
16:58 < tcr> It'd be possible to *explicitely* tell the type by passing it to some macro, but then you could just use the convention of appending the type, on which a routine operates on.
16:58 < tcr> So it'd be a no-win scenario
17:01 < mnemoc> last question: is l->count++ valid c?
17:01 -!- kasc_ [kasc@dsl-082-083-043-019.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
17:02 < mnemoc> i.e., i am increasing the content or the pointer?
17:02 < tcr> Yes. But there you go with a language with something aweful as priorites of operators
17:03 < tcr> mnemoc, Which pointer?
17:03 < tcr> Remember, a->b is nothing but syntactic sugar for (*a).b
17:04 < mnemoc> l->count++ == l->count = (l->count+1)
17:04 < mnemoc> or l->count++ = l->field_after_count
17:04 < tcr> mnemoc, OTOH, if you as writer struggle to get those priorities right, better explicitely specify the order of computation by setting parenth's
17:05 < tcr> l->count++ is the same as (*l).count++, and ++ has a higher prio than . methinks.
17:05 < mnemoc> (l->count)++ will not increase count on the structure, or am i wrong?
17:06 < mnemoc> (*l).count++ may work...
17:07 < tcr> mnemoc, What are you doing anyway?
17:08 < mnemoc> in this particular case coding a generic list
17:09 < rxr> l->count++ is valid ANSI C
17:09 < tcr> None said something different
17:10 < rxr> mnemoc: asked for it - and did not got a real answer
17:10 < mnemoc> i doubt is it it does what it should ;)
17:10 < rxr> -> has a higher priority - so ++ is done last ...
17:11 < tcr> rxr: I answered his question with a "yes", what's not a real answer there?
17:11 < mnemoc> on the structure or on the 'copied' data?
17:11 < rxr> this is enforced by the standard - nearly any C-style code out there does it somewhere ...
17:11 < mnemoc> i'll do the same then :)
17:11 < rxr> tcr: ah - ok I overread a line while cross-reading ... 
17:12 < tcr> mnemoc, l->count++ *is the same* as (*l).count++, so it increments the integer (or whatever it is) `count'
17:12 < tcr> rxr: no problem
17:12 < rxr> mnemoc: this is also no gray area, it is well defined
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17:18 < mnemoc> free( NULL ) is also well defined in old-pathetic c-compilers?
17:22 < rxr> ouhm - unsure
17:22 < rxr> depends on the C library
17:23 < rxr> GLibC says:
17:23 < rxr> If ptr is NULL, no operation is performed.
17:23 < rxr> the kernel kfree is also defined this way ...
17:26 < tcr> rxr: Yeah, but that doesn't mean that it's actually good not to explicitely specify the order. Think of something like *ptr++ or whatever (can't think of any better example)
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17:27 < rxr> tcr: why to mix extra characters in when it is well defined for 20 year to write such stuff fast - without many keystrokes?
17:27 < tcr> Actually free(NULL) is *defined* in the ANSI standard to do nothing; I'm not sure when that has been put in, but most C libraries does not seem to adhere to that, so better write your own version of free, mnemoc.
17:28 < mnemoc> keystrokes-economic principles ;)
17:28 < tcr> rxr: Simply, because code is more often read than written.
17:28 < rxr> any C newby can read this
17:28 < tcr> That's bullshit
17:29  * mnemoc got confused with l->count++ :'(
17:29 < rxr> tcr: com' on - don't tell me *prt++ is hard
17:29 < mnemoc> .oO( considreing i started coding c at 7 that confusing is humiliating )o
17:30 < rxr> tcr: just because you like colorful languages like: ptr.dereference().increment() or so ...
17:30 < tcr> There are people out there who have to do more important thing than to learn the precendence list of some language
17:32 < tcr> I don't like those. Way too much syntax :P
17:33 < mnemoc> :p
17:33 -!- MadTux [~mike@master.hack-solutions.com] has joined #rocklinux
17:34 < MadTux> hello.
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17:35 < rxr> hi MadTux 
17:35 [Users #rocklinux]
17:35 [ _Lewellyn ] [ esden  ] [ Lorini_] [ netrunner] [ StefanG] [ valentin] 
17:35 [ blindy    ] [ fake   ] [ luckz  ] [ nookie   ] [ tcr    ] 
17:35 [ BoS       ] [ Freak  ] [ MadTux ] [ owl      ] [ tfing  ] 
17:35 [ daja77    ] [ hannes_] [ mistik1] [ rolla    ] [ th     ] 
17:35 [ DeElsasser] [ jsaw   ] [ mnemoc ] [ rxr      ] [ togg   ] 
17:35 [ dsoul     ] [ kasc   ] [ netcrow] [ SMP      ] [ true   ] 
17:35 -!- Irssi: #rocklinux: Total of 31 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 31 normal]
17:35 < tcr> rxr: My point was simply that it sometimes is better to explicitely specifiy stuff. Not more.
17:36 < rxr> yes - sometime - but not with such simple examples ...
17:36 < tcr> Think of perl as an extreme, for example. It has a priority table of 24x24 operators or something similiar of that magnitude.
17:38 < rxr> you do not need to argrue about perl with me - i'm not a fan of it either
17:39 < mnemoc> hi MadTux 
17:47 < tcr> rxr: I personally consider *ptr++ to be a very good example. Why don't you think it's worth to put the parentheses in there just to ease the effort of decrypting of you or anyone else who looks at the code? It makes it clearer on the first glance. Yes, I know that it's relatively likely that you ran across this, so that your brain probably already set up some sort of pattern matcher for it -- but OTOH you put it in there for times where you're men
17:47 < tcr> tally not as fit as usually (for example when you're coding long into the night)
17:47 < tcr> s/of you or anyone else/for you or anyone else/
17:49 < daja77> re
17:49 < rxr> tcr: for decoding more braces you even need more patterns ;-)
17:53 < tcr> mnemoc, BTW. Have you looked into libhackerlab if there's not a generic list type in it?
17:54 < mnemoc> i have never read libhackerlab code :)
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18:28 < mnemoc> yeah!... my first C program in years and segfalt in the second line :\
18:30  * mnemoc looking at libhackerlab
18:32 < daja77> hi mnemoc 
18:33 < mnemoc> hi daja77 
18:33 < mnemoc> :p ... s/=/==/ 
18:34 < daja77> hehe
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19:52 < rolla> re
19:54 < MadTux> ra
19:54 < MadTux> ;)
19:55 < daja77> hey MadTux 
19:55 < MadTux> heya
19:56 < mnemoc> hi tuxie
20:16 < fake> away
20:16 < fake> n
20:17 < fake> gmornin
20:17 < owl> remoin
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20:51  * fake is freezing
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21:29 -!- De_Elsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-21-8.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #rocklinux
21:29 < De_Elsasser> halihalo
21:30 < MadTux> :)
21:30 < daja77> wb De_Elsasser 
21:31 < De_Elsasser> is it a long time a was away?
21:31 < daja77> a few hours
21:31 < De_Elsasser> hein?
21:32 < daja77> 6.5 hours
21:33 < De_Elsasser> ...........
21:37 < rxr> re
21:39 < mnemoc> rehi
21:39 -!- BoS_ [~BoS@dialin-145-254-190-212.arcor-ip.net] has joined #rocklinux
21:39 < MadTux> wb rxr
21:40 -!- hannes_ [~hannes@3ffe:bc0:8000:0:0:0:0:3909] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
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21:41 < mnemoc> hi tuxie
21:42 < rxr> "In addition, RMS stated that the use of C++ was unacceptable for the GNU
21:42 < rxr> Project, at least for programs that are presently written in C.  Let's
21:42 < rxr> please not discuss this here; whether you agree or disagree, please
21:42 < rxr> contact RMS directly, or find a GNU discussion group somewhere -- this
21:42 < rxr> list is for things to do with GCC."
21:42 < rxr> oh my god ...
21:42 < tcr> What's wrong with that?
21:43 < rxr> what has the langauage to do whether it is acceptable for the GNU project?
21:43 -!- DeElsasser [~eric@ANancy-110-1-28-87.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
21:43 < tcr> He's just sticking to the GNU constitution
21:43 < tcr> Official languages of the GNU Operating Systems are C and Lisp
21:44 < rxr> and this renders any other language unacceptable?
21:45 < tcr> Read what he wrote
21:45 < tcr> :)
21:45 < tcr> "use of C++ [...] for programs that are presently written in C"
21:46 < rxr> at least == mindestens
21:46 < rxr> he thinks so in general - but can only enforce it for programs that have already been started in C
21:47 < tcr> So what's wrong with that?
21:47 < jsaw> re
21:47 < jsaw> hi all!
21:47 < mnemoc> hi jsaw 
21:47 < daja77> hi jsaw
21:47 < tcr> rxr: With the "at least" he differentates between personal opinion as individual and decision making as the GNU father
21:48 < tcr> It's actually quite kind and profession of him, don't you think?
21:48 < tcr> moin jsaw
21:49 < rxr> tcr: however you belive
21:49 -!- BoS [~BoS@dialin-145-254-071-180.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
21:49 < rxr> hi jsaw !
21:49 < tcr> That was a honest question for your own opinion. Why so defensive?
21:50 -!- nookie [~nookie@M398P031.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #rocklinux
21:50 < jsaw> rxr: are you sure the "at least" in this sentence does not mean "zumindest"
21:51 < tcr> jsaw, ACK! That was how I perceived his "mindestens", however, too.
21:52 < rxr> however - it at least shows his basic notion that C is the language to go - and C++ in some way would polute the GNU project
21:53 < daja77> how that
21:53 < MadTux> rxr: well as it said in the text.. maybe u would like to mail rms about it?
21:53 < jsaw> .oO(the semantic part of my brain feels that "zumindest" implies a upper limit, while "mindestens" implies a lower limit...might be wrong though)
21:54 < rxr> no - I just wanted to paste the interesting snip here
21:54 < daja77> zumindest is no upper bound
21:54 < rxr> and I do not want to discuss it - I have stuff to do
21:54 < daja77> k. :)
21:54 < jsaw> were can I read it?
21:54 < rxr> gcc mailing list
21:54 < jsaw> merci
21:54 < MadTux> rxr: ok ok, no need to take it on me!
21:55 < rxr> Subject: Converting GCC to compilation with C++
21:55 < rxr> From: Mark Mitchell <mark@codesourcery.com>
21:55 < owl> MADTUX!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:55 < MadTux> SED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
21:55 < owl> *g* hi. how are you?
21:55 < MadTux> Great dear, and u ?
21:55 < rxr> MadTux: I did not want to take s.th. on you
21:55 < owl> MadTux: not so well. thx. 
21:55 < MadTux> rxr okis.
21:55 < MadTux> owl: query
21:57 < tcr> jsaw, I think it depends on emphasis and interpretation from the reader
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21:58 < tcr> Personally, I like his notion. I don't know C++, but it doesn't seem to be really that attractive to me.
21:59 < rxr> tcr: reread what you just wrote ,)
22:00 < tcr> rxr: Yes?
22:01 < rxr> you think s.th. you do not know is not really attractive for you - congratulations
22:01 < tcr> Don't put words in my mouth
22:02 < rxr> 21:58 < tcr> ... I don't know C++, but it doesn't seem to be really that attractive to me.
22:04 < tcr> So what? "it doesn't seem [...] to me". That's clearly a personal statement... I'm sorry that you fail to put any objective truth into my words, although I kinda take is as a compliment. :P
22:04 < rxr> tcr: what is your problem?
22:05 < rxr> hm - google: gnu official languages
22:05 < rxr> quite on top gimp ...
22:05 < rxr> tcr: I can not find the gnu page that lists C and LISP as official languages - do you have a link?
22:06 < tcr> Uhm, dunno where exactly I read that. Maybe GNU standard or GNU manifesto, I think.
22:10 < rxr> manifesto only has:
22:10 < rxr> "Both C and Lisp will be available as system programming languages."
22:11 < mnemoc> that's not exclusive. i'm not against c++ on gcc while it's used _only_ on the last stages of the build. i fear to not being able to build it without a `++ compiler
22:16 < rxr> ahah - the GNU project enforces Gtk+ and GNOME, good to know
22:16  * rxr killall kdeinit
22:17 < tcr> rxr: Ah, yes. That was what I read.
22:17 < tcr> rxr: What's your problem with that?
22:17 < rxr> tcr: do not get on my nerves - please
22:17 < rxr> http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards_7.html
22:17 < rxr> ^- here they propagade C ...
22:18 < rxr> case set - no dicussison please
22:18 < rxr> thanks
22:18  * rxr off to read work
22:18 < tcr> rxr: The GNU OS needs a decision for a graphical user interfaces. That doesn't mean that you have to take that as granted.
22:18 < tcr> So stop your childish behaviour
22:18 < owl> grunz
22:19 < tcr> I'm sorry that I destroyed your view of RMS as your personal saviour
22:19 < tcr> He isn't.
22:19 < rxr> I do never had this view
22:19 < rxr> as if your bugging other people all the day here behaviour is not the childish one 
22:19 < rxr> you flamewar on any post that does not fit with your mind here
22:21  * MadTux sits back, relax and keep reading :)
22:22 < tcr> Eh, you don't really think I'm flaming you, are you?
22:22 < tcr> I think you're subscribed to the GCC and LK mailinglist... Shouldn't your skin be a bit thicker?
22:23 < rxr> tcr: I already wrote that I do not want to waste more of my precious time with discussions with you
22:23 < rxr> tcr: so please do not feel angry if I continue to develop software in favour of talking to you
22:24 < tcr> Your problem with me is that I do have an own opinion, state it publically and that I do not step away from it. I think it may very well frustrate you that you have actually nothing to say
22:25 < rxr> no - the tone that your optionion is the only right one ...
22:25 < tcr> Otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive as you're are once I state my opinion
22:25 < tcr> If wouldn't think, I'd have some strong mental problems
22:25 < tcr> +so
22:25 < rxr> it is a joke that you believe I have nothing to say ... - but as you dream
22:26 < rxr> I think you are currently quite talking about the mirror in front of you
22:27 < tcr> If you state your opinion and I want you to back it up, you suddenly are very defensive as if I could do any harm to you
22:27 < jsaw> http://coolhaus.de/art-of-controversy/eristii.htm
22:27 < tcr> Defensive of your own person instead of defensive of your opinion
22:28 < tcr> rxr: See, I don't want to harm you, actually I'm at the moment trying to be constructive.
22:29 < daja77> roflmao
22:29 < jsaw> daja77: ?
22:30 < rxr> tcr: how does it come that you continue babling around while I a quater an hour ago aready told you that I do not mind hearing your stuff?
22:30 < tcr> rxr: There you see how goud-will I am
22:30 < rxr> hey stop - wait
22:30 < rxr> do not type
22:31 < rxr> I did not wanted to form a question - now I have you talking again ...
22:31 < rxr> damn
22:32 < tcr> You seem to misunderstand that when I tend to be convinced of my own opinion (which I would call natural) you perceive this as intolerance of your opinion. I can and will assure that this is not the case. 
22:33 < tcr> When I'm asking you a question, while may very well be some rhetoric element, I'm actually interested in your opinion. But you seem to misinterpret that to the most evil and malicious intend imaginable
22:33 < tcr> Please, *please* Don't. 
22:33 < daja77> omg! would you please stop that
22:34  * rxr just adding tcr psychology lesson to the headline over the ROCK Linux log files
22:35 < mnemoc> jsaw: thanks for the url
22:35 < tcr> Please take it serious. You should better learn not to relate things automatically to yourself. 
22:35 < owl> jsaw: ! hi
22:36 < tcr> That'll make your life with people who are really nasty much more easier :) 
22:36 < owl> grunz. 
22:37 < tcr> Ich habe fertig. Hoping that you may end up thinking about what I said and maybe even taking something to your heart.
22:38 < jsaw> mnemoc: I read this years ago...and still drive my gf and many ppl crazy w/ this discussion style
22:38 < jsaw> hi owl 
22:39 < rxr> jsaw: what is the problem with your discussion style? Never had one ...
22:39 < jsaw> read the url above
22:40 < rxr> I partly already read it - but I never had problems discussing with you
22:40 < jsaw> eristic dialectic (disputing in such a way as to hold one's own, whether one is in the right or the wrong - per fas et nefas.)
22:40 < tcr> rxr: Ah, sorry, I have to add something here on that line: A result of relating things to oneself and getting to easily distracted are the recent nasty discussion between you and cliff.
22:41 < tcr> There's an indication that it's actually your attitude problem not mine.
22:42 < daja77> hold on
22:42 < rxr> tcr: do you mind not beeing in the official ROCK Linux logs - so I can /ignore you?
22:42 < daja77> these were different
22:42 < jsaw> rxr: we never had a discussion were I was convinced that I should win it...
22:43 < rxr> jsaw: ,)
22:44 < tcr> daja77, Not necessarily. One said some small nasty thing, majorly about technology, but this small thing was related to oneself instead of dismished and so one replied in an even harsher tone.
22:44  * rxr off from the channel - since I can not use /ignore - cu later
22:44 < tcr> rxr: You don't need to :)
22:45 < tcr> rxr: I'm at end, right now. Promised. Have to go in some minutes anyway
22:45 < mnemoc> :)
22:46 < tcr> *But* please take the log and read it tomorrow again. And when reading try not to be biased and actually think through what I said. Just pretend that there must be some point in what I'm saying.
22:46 < jsaw> mnemoc: survived your 96h+ sleeplesness? obviously, but how?
22:51 < mnemoc> acupunture ;)
22:52 < tcr> jsaw, Don't misunderstand me. Actually I seem to be so pertinacious, because I'm pertinacious to be misproven, but by arguments not by handwaving. 
22:52 < tcr> jsaw, Unfortunately I can't read all that now, I read the three first paragraphs, and the second one is very important
22:52 < jsaw> tcr, calm down. I just gave a hint about the way you are discussion (no pro no contra so far).
22:53 < jsaw> discussing *meep* *meep*
22:53 < jsaw> btw,
22:53 < tcr> "If human nature were not base, but thoroughly honourable, we should in every debate have no other aim than the discovery of truth; we should not in the least care whether the truth proved to be in favour of the opinion which we had begun by expressing, or of the opinion of our adversary."
22:54 < tcr> I actually try to stick to that. And all I want that other people try so, too
22:56 < tcr> jsaw, But thanks for that very interesting link. I'll print and read it tomorrow in the bus.
22:57 < rxr> damn gdb - again exited while executing a program with:
22:58 < rxr> I/O possible
23:07 < jsaw> tcr: btw, if you remove the basename from the url you get the TOC of the book
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23:10 < jsaw> did anybody try a fresh build currently? 
23:10 < rxr> jsaw: 2.0 yes
23:10 < jsaw> here it stops at 0-gcc34 (make: *** libiberty: No such file or directory.  Stop.)
23:10 < rxr> jsaw: 2.1 also before the linux split
23:11 < jsaw> ah.
23:11 < rxr> jsaw: what gcc34 version?
23:11 < jsaw> HEAD
23:11 < jsaw> 3.4.12
23:11 < jsaw> s/2//
23:11 < rxr> fake: reported that 3.4.1 has such a defect and 3.4.0 works fine
23:20 < fake> jo
23:20 < fake> i also checked backwars. 3.3 is fine, too
23:20 < fake> the trick seems to be
23:21 < owl> wb fake 
23:21 < fake> make configure-libiberty configure-gcc
23:21 < fake> or some such
23:21  * fake wasn't away?
23:21 < owl> aehm. k. 
23:21 < fake> maybe there is also a configure-all ?
23:21 < fake> not sure.
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23:28 -!- MadTux [~mike@master.hack-solutions.com] has quit ["Oyasumi :)"]
23:52 -!- tcr [~tcr@p548794D2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
--- Log closed Tue Jul 13 00:00:12 2004