[00:37] <th> aw aw
[00:37] <th> uhh
[00:37] <th> cya later
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[07:15] <demian> hi
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[08:10] <SerWou> Hello the Chan
[08:56] Nick change: blindcod1r -> blindcoder
[08:56] <blindcoder> moin
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[09:22] <demian> hi
[09:23] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[09:23] <blindcoder> moin demian 
[09:24] <demian> someone used mono? or dotgnu?
[09:24] Action: blindcoder not
[09:25] <demian> need to run .net developement framework in linux.. currently using vmware. but need to migrate to an opensource solution soon.
[09:30] <[anders2]> moin
[09:31] <blindcoder> moin [anders2] 
[09:31] <[anders2]> demian: mono is probably what you looking for then
[09:31] <[anders2]> lo blindy
[09:32] <demian> mr [anders2]. 
[09:33] <demian> have u tried it ? wanna have a look what could change against the ms framework and how it is in performance.
[09:33] <[anders2]> demian: .Net on windows is much further along than any other things that will do the same thing.
[09:34] <[anders2]> there are probably things in .Net you can not yet do with mono, some things will be slower..
[09:34] <[anders2]> problem is that mono is playing catch-up with .Net
[09:34] <demian> we are performing a software testing company.. performance is a good thing to maintaint.
[09:35] <[anders2]> for an OSS solution, mono is probably the alternative to .Net, but I doubt that if your product is complex you can use it straight off..
[09:36] <[anders2]> look at the mono webpages and see what is supported and what not, they do benchmarks as well to show if things are better/worse than .Net
[09:42] <demian> yup. thanks a lot [anders2] .. again.
[09:43] <[anders2]> :-)
[10:04] <blindcoder> I wonder if I should try harder with unconventional patches
[10:11] <th> moin
[10:12] <th> blindy is comitting typos again.
[10:12] <demian> th.
[10:12] <th> blindcoder: give us another! ;)
[10:12] <th> demian: yea?
[10:13] <demian> greeting.
[10:13] <th> aye
[10:15] <blindcoder> th: :P
[10:16] <blindcoder> th: already committed two today, that must be enough
[10:16] <th> hmm refbuilds take too long ;-/
[10:18] <blindcoder> th: wrong, your machine is too slow :)
[10:18] <blindcoder> what are you building on?
[10:19] <th> blindcoder: just another pending changeset for 2.0-stable
[10:20] <blindcoder> I meant the hardware :)
[10:20] <th> changes are at: subversion, cups, linux24, swig, squid, firefox, mozilla, thunderbird, alsa
[10:20] <th> Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 2.80GHz
[10:20] <th> MemTotal:      1035520 kB
[10:22] <blindcoder> nice :)
[10:22] <th> blindcoder: oh btw. could you put a simple subversion version bump to 1.1.1 into sm?
[10:22] <blindcoder> sure
[10:22] <th> i need that for 2.0-stable commit policy ;>
[10:22] <th> as i tested it it's really just the version bump
[10:23] <th> and while you are at it... could you bump parted to 1.6.15 (it's already in stable and needs a forwardport)
[10:23] <th> just the bump again
[10:24] <blindcoder> hrmpf
[10:24] <blindcoder> why don't you bump it? you've got the source etc. already, no?
[10:24] <th> cause i've no capacity to test it on a trunk build
[10:25] <blindcoder> me neither. I also just commit version updates (mostly)
[10:25] <th> ah. so ok. thought you would test your sm patches ;-]
[10:25] <blindcoder> The capacity for a full trunk build is still limited here
[10:25] <blindcoder> sure do, but not in a full build
[10:26] <th> yea - but at least on a trunk system?
[10:26] <th> i'm only at stable
[10:26] <blindcoder> oh, sure
[10:26] <th> which i need to test the stable things
[10:26] <blindcoder> sorry, misunderstood you there
[10:26] <th> it's just that i don't want to commit a patch for trunk with only testing it in stable
[10:27] <blindcoder> yes, I see
[10:30] <blindcoder> building
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[10:42] <th> bbl
[10:43] <blindcoder> th: done
[10:54] <demian> * web search engine now downloads sites.. now making keyword parser..
[12:08] <demian> * now i am displaying web web pages.. keywords idle (will do it tomorrow :p )
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[13:04] <clifford> blindcoder: do you have some time to discuss the menu autocreation thing?
[13:09] <blindcoder> clifford: sure
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[13:10] <clifford> so, what is the current status of the menu stuff?
[13:10] <clifford> fake reminded me that there are some questions - but I forgott the details..  ;-(
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[13:11] <blindcoder> clifford: the current status is that there are 128 desktop files which - once they are done - require next to no maintenance.
[13:11] <blindcoder> The files are installed in /usr/share/applications where KDE automatically finds them
[13:12] <blindcoder> other WM's - such as icewm - need a script or maybe a configoption to tell them how to handle or find those files.
[13:12] <clifford> what about all the .desktop files which do come with the packages?
[13:12] <blindcoder> icewm currently uses a cron/postinstall script to recreate the menu
[13:13] <blindcoder> I have only found one package (gpsdrive) which ships a desktop file. the KDE desktop files are next to useless because they don't have a Categories tag.
[13:13] <blindcoder> The Categories tag is autocreated by some KDE magic which depends on the filesystem location of te file
[13:14] <clifford> what about auto-creating the Categories tag based on the ROCK Linux package categories using a postflist hook?
[13:15] <blindcoder> that is possible, though we'd violate the freedesktop spec
[13:15] <blindcoder> I have addad a --rock switch to the icewm script to use the ROCK categories, though
[13:17] <daja77> hi clifford 
[13:19] <clifford> hi daja77, what's about the desktop themes?
[13:19] <clifford> blindcoder: coundn't we somehow "map" our categories to the freedesktop ones?
[13:20] <blindcoder> clifford: to a certain degree, yes
[13:22] <daja77> clifford: i had no time to look at that
[13:22] <daja77> any news about crystal? i could need that on saturday
[13:23] <blindcoder> crystal is in trunk since tonight
[13:26] <clifford> daja77: it's very importand to have for the livecd
[13:27] <daja77> agreed
[13:27] <daja77> well atm the theme consists of background image iirc
[13:29] <blindcoder> clifford: but personally I think that creating .desktop files once for a package would be less maintenance work than having to adapt the category mappings the next time we change them
[13:29] <blindcoder> clifford: those files tend to never change during a packages entire life once they are made
[13:33] <th> re
[13:33] <th> hi clifford 
[13:34] <clifford> daja77: that would be good enough for now.
[13:34] <mnemoc> moin
[13:34] <clifford> hi th
[13:36] <daja77> clifford: any news from fake? he tried to contact while i was off?
[13:39] <SerWou> Hello the Chan
[13:40] <clifford> daja77: as you might know he only has internet connectivity on the weekends right now..
[13:40] <daja77> i was not aware of this :/
[13:40] <blindcoder> how's that? did he move or something?
[13:40] <th> more "something"
[13:40] <clifford> something like that.
[13:53] <clifford> blindcoder: hmm.. I've just had a look at the free desktop spec. It should be possible to find a matching free desktop category for each ROCK category..
[13:56] <blindcoder> clifford: what about extra/game? or extra/tool? I really dislike having XCDRoast next to seahorse
[13:57] <blindcoder> sure it would be possible. much in the same sense that it's possible to write sokoban in sed.
[13:58] <clifford> extra/game -> Game
[13:58] <blindcoder> StrategyGame, ActionGame, BoardGame
[13:58] <clifford> extra/tool -> Utility
[13:59] <clifford> just Game. The category exist in freedesktop and it better than nothing.
[13:59] <daja77> another thing comes to my mind, i know crystal is about one tool for one job and we have konqueror, but I ponder whether we should still should ship mozilla
[13:59] <clifford> If we do not create a generic solution, new packages won't have categories set in their .desktop files.
[14:00] <blindcoder> clifford: what about only setting a mapped category if no category is available? I don't really understand how you want to do this with a postflist thing
[14:01] <clifford> daja77: hmmm... which one? mozilla or firefox?
[14:02] <daja77> mozilla, it has that mailer integrated, some ppl are used to that
[14:02] <clifford> blindcoder: that's easy. e.g. see package/base/man/parse-config
[14:04] <blindcoder> clifford: okay, so you mean to set Categories= to a mapped category if non-existant and possibly add X-ROCK-Name=, too
[14:05] <clifford> yes. something like that.
[14:06] <blindcoder> I'm not sure how this will work with the KDE magic. It will work for the "other" WM's, but I'll have to try how KDE handles this when I'm home
[14:06] <clifford> another possibility would be to let the package build fail if the category is missing... so package maintainers have to patch it in.
[14:07] <blindcoder> oh, forget my last line
[14:07] <blindcoder> no, I don't think that's a reasonable approach. If we can automatically do it, then we should.
[14:08] <blindcoder> the Categories tag might be in in the next release which would possibly make a lot of patch-adding - patch-removing necessary
[14:10] <blindcoder> not to mention frustration on the part of package maintainers :)
[14:17] <clifford> ok. so we will do it automagically. do you do the coding work?
[14:17] <clifford> ah! another thing:
[14:17] <blindcoder> sure will
[14:17] <blindcoder> yes?
[14:17] <clifford> register_application() should be depricated then, right?
[14:18] <blindcoder> yes :-)
[14:19] <clifford> what's about register_wm and register_xdm - are they used?
[14:19] <blindcoder> yes, they are
[14:20] <clifford> ok - I've not found a single call to register_application, so I will simply remove the function now.
[14:23] <blindcoder> there shouldn't be any. I used them early in the menu_autocreation but was enlightened later :)
[14:37] <blindcoder> clifford: I suggest modifying the PKG-CATEGORIES file as follows:
[14:37] <blindcoder> ROCK-CATEGORY<tab>DESKTOP-CATEGORY
[14:38] <blindcoder> that way the mapping is done where it belongs and can hardly be "forgotten" when adding/changing categories
[14:46] <blindcoder> hmm
[14:46] <blindcoder> no, that's not good
[14:48] <clifford> blindcoder: ;-)
[14:49] <daja77> clifford: should this rock "themeing" stuff be hard coded, or implemented as switches in Config?
[14:49] <daja77> just asked a kde dev on how to get that in ;)
[14:51] <clifford> a switch would be nice - but something hardcoded with one image would also be fine now. It's still possible to add a switch later..
[14:52] <daja77> so we would inlude that image in svn?
[14:53] <clifford> no. a download URL would be better imo.
[14:54] <daja77> ah yes that's quite easy too
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[14:58] <treo> sali
[14:58] <blindcoder> clifford: will the package build fail if I `exit 1` in the postflist hook?
[15:01] <netrunner> blindcoder: I always use exit 1 to stop the build within a .conf file, so it will probably also fail in that hook.
[15:01] <blindcoder> netrunner: great, thanks ;)
[15:35] <clifford> blindcoder: it would fail - but I would reject your patch
[15:35] <clifford> simply call the shell function "abort"
[15:36] <clifford> netrunner: that's also what you should do in *.conf files.
[15:37] <blindcoder> okay, will rediff with abort
[15:39] <blindcoder> done
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[15:50] <madtux> hello.
[15:51] <blindcoder> moin madtux 
[15:51] <blindcoder> madtux: say, can you give me a few photos or a summary or something about your talk?
[15:52] <blindcoder> madtux: I'd like to include that in the next newsflash
[15:52] <blindcoder> madtux: and don't tell me you deleted that *grr*
[15:53] <clifford> blindcoder: oh' btw: http://www.os04.at/rock_linux.html
[15:53] <clifford> .. the slides are at http://www.clifford.at/papers/
[15:55] <madtux> good day blindy and cliff
[15:56] <madtux> blindcoder: i lost my presentation, but i didn't loose my pictures.. and yes i can write a summary
[15:56] <blindcoder> clifford: great, adding to ROCKTODO_200410
[15:56] <blindcoder> madtux: that would be great!
[15:56] <madtux> blindcoder: for one second i though no body even cared about that.
[15:57] <madtux> blindcoder: anyways where should i upload some pics of the event?
[15:57] <madtux> i still don't have much space
[15:57] <madtux> on my server i mean
[15:57] <madtux> my laptop is almost wiped out
[15:58] <blindcoder> madtux: just send them to me by mail
[15:58] <blindcoder> madtux: I have a place to put them
[15:59] <madtux> blindcoder: great.. blindy@rock .. ?
[15:59] <madtux> blindcoder: i lost all my emails and contacts..
[16:00] <blindcoder> madtux: blindcoder@scavenger.homeip.net
[16:01] <madtux> blindcoder: very well.. i'll send u a few pics shortly.. what ize would you like them?
[16:02] <madtux> size* as in resolution
[16:02] <blindcoder> madtux: whatever size you have them. I wrote myself a small web gallery which automatically creates thumbnails and scales to any requested size using imagemagick
[16:02] <blindcoder> and with a 300kB/s downstream just dump them all on me :-)
[16:03] <madtux> very well.. finally maximun size per email? :)
[16:03] <madtux> i got several pis to share :)
[16:04] <blindcoder> hmm... let's say... 2GB / mail
[16:04] <madtux> :P
[16:04] <blindcoder> I'm not sure about the maximum filesize limit of ext3
[16:04] <madtux> ok
[16:05] <blindcoder> clifford: has anyone proofread that presentation?
[16:06] <clifford> no. I wrote in down the day before the presentation.
[16:06] <clifford> A patch for the .tex file is welcome.
[16:06] <blindcoder> I see. Otherwise I'd suggested firing the proofreader ;-)
[16:07] <blindcoder> clifford: is that file a good or a bad choice for someone who never used tex before?
[16:07] <clifford> hmm... I'd say it's ok.
[16:08] <clifford> (slides.tex - don't look into the style sheet if you don't have a strong stomache)
[16:09] <blindcoder> okay, I won't :)
[16:13] <madtux> blindcoder: sent a couple of emails so far
[16:14] <madtux> blindcoder: what would you like me to send on my "summary" like a detail on people's reaction when their heard about rock and so on?
[16:14] <blindcoder> madtux: first one is already here
[16:15] <madtux> -=[ hello clifford ]=-
[16:15] <madtux> blindcoder: nice :)
[16:15] <daja77> hi madtux 
[16:15] <blindcoder> madtux: how many layers of people were there (eg, the people on the bottom, the ones above them and the third row above the second one because the room was way too small)
[16:15] <clifford> -=[ hello madtux ]=-
[16:16] <madtux> :P
[16:16] <blindcoder> madtux: questions that were asked, how many people asked etc.
[16:16] <madtux> blindcoder: well there were maybe 900 people only.. but yeah the conference room was small
[16:16] <madtux> very well
[16:16] <blindcoder> madtux: don't be shy, I'll cut it down for you :)
[16:17] <madtux> blindcoder: the amazonas congress was much bigger.. and there were much more people
[16:18] <madtux> blindy... you know i could also just upload all my pics to your box if you want..
[16:18] <madtux> or at least many more.
[16:21] <blindcoder> madtux: sure, you still have your account
[16:22] Action: blindcoder didn't think of that :/
[16:23] <madtux> i guess it would be easier :)
[16:23] <daja77> blindcoder: do you have new crystal isos
[16:25] <blindcoder> daja77: I can build one if you want
[16:25] <madtux> blindcoder: i've been waiting for your isos..
[16:26] <blindcoder> madtux: http://iso.rocklinux.de/default.php?dir=/unofficial/blindcoder/crystal/
[16:26] <blindcoder> but it's buggy
[16:26] <madtux> define buggy
[16:26] <blindcoder> you must recompile cracklib and pam (in this order) to be able to use passwd
[16:27] <daja77> blindcoder: that would be great
[16:27] <blindcoder> daja77: okay, I'll start a new build once I'm home
[16:27] <blindcoder> pentium-mmx?
[16:27] <daja77> yep
[16:27] <blindcoder> okay
[16:27] <blindcoder> by your order :)
[16:27] <daja77> and using the new packages flagged as core
[16:27] <madtux> i;ll wait for the new build blindy
[16:27] <daja77> btw what about that video player stuff
[16:28] <daja77> no order, just a request ;)
[16:28] <blindcoder> daja77: I'm still in favor of xine, even though personally I use mplayer
[16:28] <daja77> yep so ycould you add this to the build
[16:28] <blindcoder> daja77: will do
[16:28] <madtux> :)
[16:29] <daja77> great, beware of w32-codecs and stuff
[16:29] <blindcoder> daja77: can you mail me a list of codecs? I'll be off on my way home now
[16:29] <daja77> no list, just the package w32-codecs ;)
[16:30] <blindcoder> okay :)
[16:30] Action: blindcoder gone
[16:30] Action: madtux uploading pics to crazyhorse
[16:37] <daja77> clifford: ?
[16:38] <clifford> yup?
[16:38] <daja77> do we have a nice background pic i could use for testing?
[16:39] Action: daja77 preparing a quick'n'dirty hack to get a rock pic into crystal for saturday, implementing it in a proper way later
[16:40] <daja77> the page of martin is down :/
[16:43] <daja77> there is one on rock hp/pr stuff, but has no reasonable size imo
[16:54] <daja77> <- off now
[16:57] <blindcoder> back
[17:07] <blindcoder> daja77: I've applied the pending crystal patches as well as the move-docanddev-to-the-back-of-the-cd-set patch into the build
[17:08] <clifford> blindcoder: regarding 2004102715394226061
[17:08] <clifford> two little things:
[17:08] <clifford> 1. "grep \.desktop\$" would be better (not so importand)
[17:09] <madtux> wb blindcoder 
[17:09] <clifford> 2. since the hooks are more or less transparent, they shouldn't change things silently
[17:09] <blindcoder> madtux: thanks
[17:09] <blindcoder> clifford: okay, gimme 5 minutes :-)
[17:09] <clifford> maybe you could add some 'echo "Patching XYZ into FILENAME."' outputs in it?
[17:19] <blindcoder> oh...
[17:19] <blindcoder> there's already a functionality to install *.desktop files in scripts/functions (build_this_package)
[17:19] <blindcoder> although it installs to /usr/share/rock-registry/app/
[17:20] <blindcoder> clifford: what about rewriting that part to install to /usr/share/applications ?
[17:35] <blindcoder> well, I just did that :)
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[17:50] <clifford> blindcoder: ok.  ;-)
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[17:53] <madtux> re
[17:53] <blindcoder> madtux: wb
[17:54] <madtux> blindcoder: as you can notice a few pictures are already on my home dir @ crazyhorse
[17:54] <blindcoder> madtux: how's the upload?
[17:54] <blindcoder> madtux: heh :-)
[17:54] <madtux> doing ok
[17:55] <blindcoder> hmm
[17:55] <blindcoder> acl-2.2.23.src.tar.gz is nowhere to be found
[17:55] <blindcoder> not on the mirrors nor original location
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[18:17] <madtux> blindcoder: how long does it take you to create cristal isos?
[18:17] tcr (~tcr@p54879A0C.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[18:18] <madtux> hello tcr.
[18:18] <blindcoder> madtux: I think they'll be done by Saturday morning
[18:18] <madtux> okis.
[18:19] <blindcoder> madtux: but I'm currently scratching together a dual PIII 800 machine so maybe I'm soon able to do cluster builds
[18:19] <madtux> cool
[18:19] <madtux> blindcoder: ever used distcc ?
[18:19] <blindcoder> no
[18:20] <madtux> we should really look at it for future use in rock.. maybe also scrathbox
[18:21] <blindcoder> doesn't SuSE use it for builds on naturally slow arches?
[18:21] <madtux> i think so
[18:22] <madtux> http://www.scratchbox.org/
[18:22] <madtux> http://distcc.samba.org/
[18:22] <clifford> madtux: and once again: there is no scenario where we could use distcc. I'm really tired of repeating this over and over again.
[18:23] <madtux> clifford: this is the FIRST time i ever mention distcc..
[18:23] <clifford> but you are not the first person doing it. ;-)
[18:23] <madtux> :)
[18:24] Action: blindcoder - knowing nothing about that topic - shuts up
[18:24] <madtux> would u mind to justify your comment?
[18:24] <madtux> :)
[18:25] <clifford> distcc needs "make -j" to have a clusterbuild-like effect
[18:26] <clifford> most packages with more than one source dir are broken with "make -j" and there is no way to proove if a package is sane
[18:35] <madtux> good point.
[18:49] <tcr> clifford, "todos which are nice to have" contains "mini version for building rock", and "todos which can wait" contains "better support for building on non-rock systems". That's braindead, because this makes one advantage of rock over gentoo vanish.
[18:49] <clifford> tcr: "mini version for building rock" is an issue of a few hours
[18:50] <clifford> "better support for building on non-rock systems" is an issue of many man-weeks (if done right)
[18:50] <blindcoder> isn't that already done with the minimal template?
[18:51] <tcr> So it's already not possible to build it on a non-rock system?
[18:51] <tcr> GNU/Linux system, that's it.
[18:51] <blindcoder> tcr: with some handpicked changes, it is
[18:51] <blindcoder> like mktemp, sed and two or there others
[18:52] <clifford> tcr: you would need to install at least debian, suse, redhat and mandrake in they common flavours (versions) with various common package selection and see what going wrong.
[18:53] <clifford> tcr: minimal is far to big. this bootstrap thing would be about 50 packages.
[18:54] <clifford> .. and would be fully crossbuild-able.
[18:54] <_Ragnar__> moin
[18:54] <clifford> moin
[18:57] <tcr> clifford, That'd be just fixing the edges. Really, there should be some portability layer.  
[19:00] <netrunner> anybody here firm with exim?
[19:01] <tcr> Like `sed ... s/.../.../...' should be a function replace-string, but doing that strictly would mean that you don't really call any commando directly. And then you'd be to a point where doing the whole thing in a different language than shell would deem quite appropriate. :)
[19:01] Action: netrunner want's a scripts/Config in java so it is portable.
[19:02] Action: clifford kicks netrunner
[19:02] Action: netrunner runs
[19:02] <tcr> netrunner, Well, I thought The Plan was to improve the speed of Config ;)
[19:03] <netrunner> tcr: oh :)
[19:03] <netrunner> which package contains a mailing list sw?
[19:04] <netrunner> nobody packaged majordomo? ts ...
[19:08] <tcr> Hmm, I have A New Revolutionary Plan. Why not do Rock in Emacs? Emacs already is an Operating System (minus the kernel, but that shouldn't be that hard to package), it's almost fully customizable (that's where the distribution build kit part comes in)...
[19:08] <tcr> ...Well, it just lacks a good editor, so we should package one with.
[19:10] Action: tcr is j/k. he's tremendously enjoying Viper-mode of Emacs.
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[19:35] <daja77> blindcoder: ok
[19:41] <th> clifford: "mini version for building rock" is even already available as binary
[19:41] <th> stable:/misc/pkgsel/build-bootstrap.in
[19:43] <daja77> netrunner: got your car?
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[20:57] <demian> hi
[21:09] <madtux> hello d3bian.
[21:10] <madtux> ok my little part for the personal todo's is sent to the list.
[21:13] <demian> madtux.
[21:14] <madtux> demian: how are things?
[21:14] Action: demian at the end found the right girl. now thinks how to flow.
[21:15] <madtux> 0_o
[21:16] <demian> madtux: itcr is tired.. i am stressed a lot about some emotional conflicts.  :)
[21:16] <demian> what about u?
[21:21] <madtux> demian: work is cosuming all my time... plus building my appartment is keeping me broke
[21:21] <madtux> Anyone can please help me out with some question i have about 21C3 ?
[21:22] <tcr> itcr?
[21:22] <daja77> which?
[21:22] <demian> nice to know ur building
[21:22] <madtux> demian: danke.
[21:22] <demian> tcr: www.itcr.ac.cr -> my Uni.
[21:22] <madtux> daja77: here we go:
[21:22] <madtux> 1. Am i supposed to fill up any kind of registration or so in order to help at the rock booth?
[21:23] <madtux> 2. Can people sleep at the congress place or where is most of the people willing to stay at?
[21:23] <daja77> just mail praenti about that
[21:23] <daja77> last year some slept there
[21:23] <madtux> ok
[21:23] <daja77> i have no place to rest for myself atm
[21:24] <madtux> the other thing would be trying to find a hotel and share a room with some folks but would have to ask if its actually allowed
[21:24] Action: demian just started implementing the b* for search engine keywords.. (never did with b*)
[21:25] <madtux> demian: have fun.
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 28 2004