[00:00] kasc_ (kasc@dsl-082-083-053-053.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[00:10] kasc (kasc@dsl-082-083-128-254.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[00:10] Nick change: kasc_ -> kasc
[00:14] esden (~esden@fortuna7.bingo-ev.de) left irc: 
[00:15] esden (~esden@fortuna7.bingo-ev.de) joined #rocklinux.
[00:28] esden (~esden@fortuna7.bingo-ev.de) got netsplit.
[00:28] rolla (maisenhe@adsl-66-136-183-237.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) got netsplit.
[00:28] netrunner (~andreas@pD9E8C369.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) got netsplit.
[00:28] _Ragnar_ (loki@66-146-166-62.skyriver.net) got netsplit.
[00:28] SMP (~stefanp@vanessa.wronline.net) got netsplit.
[00:30] _Ragnar_ (loki@66-146-166-62.skyriver.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[00:30] rolla (maisenhe@adsl-66-136-183-237.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[00:30] netrunner (~andreas@pD9E8C369.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[00:30] esden (~esden@fortuna7.bingo-ev.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[00:31] SMP_ (~stefanp@vanessa.wronline.net) joined #rocklinux.
[00:38] SMP (~stefanp@vanessa.wronline.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[00:38] SMP (~stefanp@vanessa.wronline.net) left irc: Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)
[01:33] Nick change: SMP_ -> SMP
[03:48] ojh (~omer@63-224-203-90.eugn.qwest.net) joined #rocklinux.
[03:50] <ojh> I need help with a build error when building a boot target:
[03:50] <ojh> Creating initrd data:
[03:50] <ojh> -> Create linuxrc binary.
[03:50] <ojh> ./scripts/Build-Target: line 8: diet: command not found
[03:57] ojh (~omer@63-224-203-90.eugn.qwest.net) left #rocklinux.
[04:02] esden (~esden@fortuna7.bingo-ev.de) left irc: 
[05:01] praenti (~praenti@ left irc: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)
[05:01] praenti (~praenti@ joined #rocklinux.
[07:21] mnemoc_ (~amery@ joined #rocklinux.
[07:34] mnemoc (~amery@ left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[08:13] netrunne1 (~andreas@pD9E8C704.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) joined #rocklinux.
[08:31] netrunner (~andreas@pD9E8C369.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[08:31] Nick change: netrunne1 -> netrunner
[09:06] <blindcoder> moin
[09:06] <netrunner> yo, moin man :)
[09:07] <blindcoder> o_O
[09:09] <SerWou> morning
[09:10] <blindcoder> meh, xorg requires >1GB diskspace to compile
[09:10] <blindcoder> this sucks
[09:12] <_Ragnar_> try kde
[09:12] <_Ragnar_> or openoffice
[09:13] <blindcoder> problem is that my build stopped because of that at 23:30
[09:14] <blindcoder> and I've even still been awake at the time :(
[09:14] <blindcoder> >8 hours idle
[09:18] <netrunner> blindcoder: 2.6 too :)
[09:18] <blindcoder> no, 2.6 worked fine within 1GB
[09:18] <netrunner> blindcoder:  Ialready once suggested monitoring the disk usage. was discarded at some meeting :)
[09:19] Action: netrunner -> breakfast
[09:19] <blindcoder> an guadn
[09:40] <blindcoder> [X] Installation documented
[10:39] <netrunner> where do I put a .ttf font that I downloaded?
[10:39] <netrunner> /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF/ ?
[10:40] BoS (~BoS@dialin-212-144-072-177.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[10:47] <netrunner> blindcoder: I would avoid urls containing spaces.
[10:49] <blindcoder> netrunner: works fine
[10:49] <blindcoder> even with %20 it is evaluated quite fine
[10:49] <blindcoder> btw: http://scavenger.homeip.net/ROCK/rss_rockdoc
[10:49] <blindcoder> :)
[10:50] <owl> moin *yaaaaawn*
[10:50] <netrunner> blindcoder: I don't like urls with spaces. even if it may be escaped with %20, it is nothing I want to have.
[10:51] <blindcoder> hmm
[10:51] <blindcoder> any suggestions
[10:52] <netrunner> yes. either use _ or SmashItTogetherAsUsualInWikis
[10:53] <blindcoder> hmm
[10:54] <blindcoder>  InstallationUsingCD?-Rom
[10:54] <blindcoder> just minus the "-Rom"
[10:56] <blindcoder> okay, fine with me :-)
[10:57] <netrunner> thx :)
[10:58] <netrunner> hm. since I switched to utf8, I have problems with umlauts.
[10:58] treo (~xfman@D9c2d.d.pppool.de) joined #rocklinux.
[10:58] <netrunner> what do you see here: 
[10:59] <blindcoder> I see a capital A with a ~ over it and some unprintabe character
[10:59] <netrunner> hm. when typing it I see weird characters. in the line that is displayed after sending, I see the o-umlaut I typed.
[10:59] <netrunner> hm ... maybe because the irssi is still running without utf8
[10:59] <blindcoder> also, when trying to use LANG="de_DE.UTF8" I get:
[10:59] <blindcoder> Warning: locale not supported by Xlib, locale set to C
[11:25] treo (~xfman@D9c2d.d.pppool.de) left irc: "safe the Planet, kill yourself"
[11:30] <netrunner> brr. svn: The REPORT request returned invalid XML in the response: XML parse error at line 28852: Extra content at the end of the documen
[11:31] <blindcoder> which repository?
[11:31] <netrunner> rock. got this twice
[11:32] <netrunner> (in parallel sm sync's)
[11:48] <blindcoder> not using sm, sorry
[11:50] <netrunner> Warning: locale not supported by C library, locale unchanged
[11:51] <blindcoder> yeah, something like that :)
[11:51] <netrunner> that's what I get with xterm -u8
[11:52] <blindcoder> seems to work fine here
[11:53] <blindcoder> just that it doesn't :)
[11:56] <blindcoder> *sigh*
[11:57] <blindcoder> why do my patches always require such a huge list of pro-votes :)
[11:57] Nick change: BoS -> BoS^afk
[12:08] Action: netrunner dissatisfied by thunderbird now trying the latest kmail and it's disconnected imap
[12:09] <netrunner> >13k messages in cron mailbox :)
[12:10] <blindcoder> oucrh
[12:12] <netrunner> only noticed because kmail just synced it :)
[12:13] <blindcoder> heh
[12:13] <blindcoder> I only get two to three cron's a day
[12:15] <netrunner> I have a script that moves my incoming mldonkey files away. any idea how to suppress the mails?
[12:16] <blindcoder> 2>/dev/null >&2
[12:16] <blindcoder> no script output, no mail
[12:18] esden (~esden@ joined #rocklinux.
[12:19] <blindcoder> moin esden 
[12:19] <esden> moooorning
[12:19] <blindcoder> woot, clifford added the rss feeds to rl.org :D
[12:19] <esden> *yaaaaawwwwn*
[12:19] <esden> cool ;)
[12:43] <blindcoder> okay, what's up if all I get are tons of "GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB GRUB" ad infinitum at startup?
[12:46] <blindcoder> okay, BIOS autodetection broken
[12:56] blindcod1r (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[12:56] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-213-023-155-012.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[12:56] Nick change: blindcod1r -> blindcoder
[12:57] <blindcoder> WEE
[12:57] <blindcoder> my dual-processor machine is up and running ;D
[12:58] <blindcoder> only with pentium-mmx optimisation atm, though :(
[13:02] <blindcoder> wake on lan is also working :D
[13:12] <owl> WOL... hmm... *thinking* could it be possible to program a robot to work with a wlan-card in ad-hoc-mode and so, and then, if it receives a signal, to make a robot 'awakening' and listening to input?
[13:17] <blindcoder> wlan... I don't think so
[13:17] <blindcoder> you can _send_ the wol magic packet via wlan
[13:17] <blindcoder> but I don't think you can _receive_ it
[13:17] <owl> hmm. that's bad... or - hm. - 'standby mode, getting signals via wlan -> full power on'... ?
[13:18] <owl> hmm?
[13:18] <owl> .oO( i want more money... *sigh*)
[13:23] <owl> gnarf. someone has clue about what is wrong, if 'eiter' is produced by eyes?
[13:24] <blindcoder> a lot can be wrong. consult your eye-doctor
[13:25] <owl> already was there... he gave me eye-drops (with cortison and antibiotika) and i've got 'eiter & verklebte & stechende' eyes...
[13:25] <blindcoder> sorry, can't help you there
[13:26] <owl> thx :(
[13:28] <owl> huh? in rock-src-2.0.3 there's no live-cd?
[13:28] <owl> -target
[13:34] <owl> igitt. openoffie-preview = rpm. *pukes*
[13:50] SerWou (~SerWou@lafilaire-3-82-224-107-105.fbx.proxad.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[14:01] esden (~esden@ left irc: 
[14:17] esden (~esden@ joined #rocklinux.
[14:28] esden (~esden@ left irc: 
[15:03] esden (~esden@ joined #rocklinux.
[15:37] esden (~esden@ left irc: 
[15:38] esden (~esden@ joined #rocklinux.
[16:01] Action: netrunner slaps esden with a large trout
[16:01] <esden> o_O?
[16:02] <netrunner> esden: stop suspending your irc client :)
[16:02] <esden> :P
[16:03] <esden> make your client not show that somebody is suspending his client ;)
[16:03] <daja77> that would be /ognoree esden ;)
[16:04] <daja77>  /ignore even
[16:04] <esden> erm ...
[16:04] <esden> hrm ...
[16:04] <esden> *no comment*
[16:05] <daja77>  /* no comment */ ? ;)
[16:06] <blindcoder> it's the end of january and it start snowing here
[16:08] <blindcoder> ouch
[16:08] <blindcoder> just found out that this board can support up to 4 GB of RAM
[16:09] <daja77> here we already have snow
[16:10] <blindcoder> well, starts snowing is probably the wrong word... it's a fscking blizzard
[16:24] owl (~owl@ left irc: "unneeded and unwanted people are removed. NOW."
[16:53] SerWou (~SerWou@lafilaire-3-82-224-107-105.fbx.proxad.net) joined #rocklinux.
[16:54] <SerWou> Hello guys
[17:04] rolla (maisenhe@adsl-66-136-183-237.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) got netsplit.
[17:04] tfing (~tfing@devnull.roulaize.net) got netsplit.
[17:05] rolla (maisenhe@adsl-66-136-183-237.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[17:06] tfing (~tfing@devnull.roulaize.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[17:28] <praenti> anybody here who can explain me how i can integrate my dvb-s card?
[17:28] <praenti> oO( for example fake )
[17:28] <praenti> i don't get the firmware hotplugging running...
[17:29] <praenti> and howtos are terrible incomplete... :-(
[17:33] <SerWou> sorry, i can't help you , i don't even know what is a dvb-s card ;)
[17:33] <blindcoder> digital video broadasting
[17:33] <SerWou> humm
[17:33] <SerWou> interesting
[17:34] <SerWou> why you need dvb card praenti ?
[17:38] <praenti> SerWou: to watch TV
[17:38] <SerWou> ha ok ;)
[17:39] <SerWou> i through you're doing some Editing/Compositing stuff on HD videos
[17:54] <praenti> it is mor like a digital video recorder :-)
[18:14] esden (~esden@ left irc: 
[18:55] <SMP> praenti: are you using hotplug, not rockplug? does your kernel support firmware hotplug events?
[18:56] treo (~xfman@Daad5.d.pppool.de) joined #rocklinux.
[18:56] <treo> moin
[19:19] <blindcoder> hmmm
[19:19] <blindcoder> my main machine takes 6 euro worth of power a month
[19:19] <blindcoder> and it doesn't even contain half the things it should :/
[19:22] owl (~owl@karnaya.de) joined #rocklinux.
[19:23] <owl> re
[19:24] <blindcoder> wb
[19:24] <owl> thx.
[19:26] tcr (~tcr@pD9EABA94.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[20:05] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) got netsplit.
[20:05] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) got netsplit.
[20:05] th (th@thzn.de) got netsplit.
[20:05] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) got netsplit.
[20:05] blindcod1r (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[20:05] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:05] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:05] th (th@thzn.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:06] Nick change: blindcod1r -> blindcoder
[20:06] Possible future nick collision: blindcoder
[20:07] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Nick collision from services.
[20:07] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[20:10] blindcod1r (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[20:10] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Client Quit
[20:10] blindcod1r (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Client Quit
[20:13] th (th@thzn.de) got netsplit.
[20:13] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) got netsplit.
[20:13] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) got netsplit.
[20:14] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[20:14] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:14] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:14] th (th@thzn.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:22] Nick change: owl -> ezky
[20:23] Nick change: ezky -> owl
[20:42] praenti (~praenti@ left irc: "leaving"
[20:43] praenti (~praenti@ joined #rocklinux.
[20:44] <praenti> SMP: yes. kernel supports hotplug firmware loading and I use hotplug because rockplug is xxxx
[20:44] CTCP PING: 1106509438 378489 from blindcoder (blindcoder!~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) to #rocklinux
[20:48] th (th@thzn.de) got netsplit.
[20:48] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) got netsplit.
[20:48] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) got netsplit.
[20:48] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) got netsplit.
[20:48] <owl> blindy? O_o
[20:48] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:48] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:48] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:48] th (th@thzn.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:54] th (th@thzn.de) got netsplit.
[20:54] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) got netsplit.
[20:54] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) got netsplit.
[20:54] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) got netsplit.
[20:58] netcrow (~netcrow@apollo.bingo-ev.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[20:58] clifford (~clifford@213-229-1-138.sdsl-line.inode.at) returned to #rocklinux.
[21:03] th (th@thzn.de) returned to #rocklinux.
[21:03] blindcoder (~blindcode@dsl-082-082-103-205.arcor-ip.net) returned to #rocklinux.
[21:13] ojh (~omer@208-45-99-117.eugn.qwest.net) joined #rocklinux.
[21:14] <ojh> I have a question about a build error.
[21:15] <blindcoder> so ask it :)
[21:15] <ojh> When completing the build of a boot target I got:
[21:15] <ojh> Creating initrd data:
[21:15] <ojh> -> Create linuxrc binary
[21:15] <ojh> ./scripts/Build-Target: line 8: diet: command not found
[21:15] <blindcoder> which ROCK are you building? which version?
[21:15] <ojh> 2.0.3
[21:16] <blindcoder> you must install dietlibc into your host system
[21:16] <blindcoder> and no, it won't interfere with your glibc
[21:16] <ojh> OK, thanks.
[21:18] <ojh> So the boot CD build is based on dietlibc and not glibc?
[21:18] <blindcoder> partly, to save on disk space
[21:19] <ojh> IC
[21:19] <blindcoder> IIRC in trunk the builds dietlibc
[21:20] <ojh> But dietlibc is not part of the default Desktop targets?
[21:20] <blindcoder> *is used
[21:20] <blindcoder> no, but bootdisk
[21:20] <blindcoder> gnaa
[21:20] <blindcoder> bootdisk has it
[21:20] <ojh> IC
[21:20] <blindcoder> why am I stopping mid-sentence?
[21:21] <ojh> ???
[21:21] <blindcoder> nevermind
[21:21] <ojh> Has ROCK been used in any embeded type projects that you know of?
[21:22] <blindcoder> you'd better ask clifford abouth that
[21:22] <blindcoder> he, being father and big poobah of ROCK, knows more about that than me
[21:22] <ojh> IC, :)
[21:24] <ojh> The boot disk looks like it has everything needed for a basic router config . . . . iptables, etc . . . . 
[21:25] <blindcoder> hardly
[21:25] <blindcoder> it doesn't have an init system and other basic things
[21:25] <ojh> Oh, yes, IC
[21:26] <ojh> Well, it built! :D
[21:27] <ojh> Now, I really need to dig up some old boxes so i can make a build cluster for my self . . . . .
[21:28] <blindcoder> heh
[21:28] <ojh> Just the boot image took quite a while to compile on my Athalon 900 box :/
[21:30] <ojh> Does anyone else here use MSN sessenger service on gaim? For some reson I cannot connect today. M$ servers down (again)? Another protocol "upgrade"?
[21:31] <blindcoder> I have IRC problems today
[21:33] <ojh> I was having MAJOR problems accessing anything friday night, my bandwith was a trickel and ALL the DNS servers I have configured acted funky. Still not 100%, but that could just be the miserable teleco my service is through.
[21:42] <praenti> hmm. last try without devfs...
[21:45] Action: netrunner is flawlessly running udev now on one pc
[21:46] <blindcoder> with what config? static dev or devfs compatible?
[21:47] <blindcoder> but I guess I'll try it on my dual-machine
[21:47] <praenti> i will try it in the new config
[21:47] <netrunner> blindcoder: nothing done, out of the box. had to use it, because hotplug starts udevd without being asked.
[21:47] Action: netrunner wants rockplug back
[21:48] <blindcoder>  hmm
[21:48] <blindcoder> netrunner: udevd runs on ceres, too, but devfs is mounted nonetheless
[21:49] <netrunner> blindcoder: I disabled the devfs mounting and selected udev in stone.
[21:49] <blindcoder> guess I'll try that after the build is done
[21:50] <owl> .oO( why are there 2 binutils? one normal, and one binutils-cross?!)
[21:50] <treo> gn8
[21:50] <daja77> one for crossbuilding?
[21:51] <owl> yeah, but why not doing this in one dir?
[21:52] treo (~xfman@Daad5.d.pppool.de) left irc: "safe the Planet, kill yourself"
[21:52] <owl> and the same to gcc. why is there a gcc2, gcc3, gcc3-cross and gcc33?!!!
[21:53] <blindcoder> you're talking 2.0?
[21:53] <blindcoder> there's no pkgforking in 2.0
[21:53] <owl> blindcoder: yeah. 2.0.3 to be exact
[21:54] <owl> pkgforking?
[21:54] <blindcoder> http://scavenger.homeip.net/rockdoc/PackageForking
[21:57] <owl> but - who needs/wants gcc2 e.g.? 
[21:58] <blindcoder> well it's there, why remove it?
[21:58] <owl> cuz it's as old as my grandma?
[21:58] <daja77> yep just switch it off
[21:58] <blindcoder> must be a young family :)
[21:59] <daja77> debian stable still has it ^^
[21:59] <owl> nah... it's not clear... well. how will the package-tree look in - 10 years? gcc2, gcc3, gcc3-cross, gcc33, gcc4, gcc4-cross, gcc5,... ? ;)
[21:59] <blindcoder> maybe :)
[22:00] <owl> daja77: debian... debian stable uses software which already lost the teeth because of being old
[22:00] <owl> blindcoder: you're _really_ scaring me :)
[22:00] <blindcoder> thanks. I try my very best :)
[22:00] <owl> blindcoder: you're welcome :p
[22:00] BoS^afk_ (~BoS@dialin-212-144-017-102.arcor-ip.net) joined #rocklinux.
[22:01] <daja77> blindy is scaring everyone
[22:02] Action: blindcoder is big and scary *MUAHAHAHA*
[22:02] <owl> *lol* yeah. exactly :p
[22:03] esden (~esden@p3EE21C03.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[22:03] <owl> .oO( you're driving the 'leichenwagen' which is often parking in front of our house? )
[22:03] <blindcoder> no, but I'm giving it work
[22:03] <owl> hehe. well. than you're not as scary as he is
[22:05] SteffenP (steffen@pD9E50A6E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[22:06] <owl> .oO( and - how to define 'base' ? isn't 'base' the stuff you need to run a system? )
[22:06] <blindcoder> that's the category base/
[22:06] <blindcoder> not to be confused with the repository base/
[22:07] <owl> well. why not moving the stuff categorized as 'base' into base, but having stuff like - gnupg in base/, too? need you e.g. gnupg to rescue a HDD? ;)
[22:07] <blindcoder> if you have a pgp encrypted disk, yes
[22:09] <owl> well. how many percent of the people do this have? ;) and: it's not strictly needed for a standard-system... then you can move it to: 'security/' or stuff
[22:09] Action: netrunner doing sm recreate (again) :/
[22:10] <blindcoder> owl: that's the category it is in
[22:10] <blindcoder> owl: the repository is just a directory holding packages for organisatorial reasons
[22:10] <owl> blindcoder: yeah, category. but not repos. why not also creating a repos. 'security' ? 
[22:10] <owl> or 'ircii' - why in base?!
[22:10] <owl> O_o
[22:10] <blindcoder> and having to search packages like gnupg in personal repos is just stupid
[22:11] <blindcoder> *shrug* no idea
[22:11] <blindcoder> the repos don't mean anything so why get worked up over them?
[22:12] <owl> well. if you're new to rock (or so) - and you want to have a look at 'is ircii there, too' - where will you look first? at base?! - or will you first have a look at 'internet-related/communication' ?
[22:12] BoS^afk (~BoS@dialin-212-144-072-177.arcor-ip.net) left irc: Read error: 113 (No route to host)
[22:12] <blindcoder> if you are new to rock you don't use the src tree
[22:13] <blindcoder> and if you do, you have the brains to do cd package/*/ircii
[22:13] <blindcoder> or use sonar
[22:13] <owl> sonar?
[22:13] <blindcoder> http://scavenger.homeip.net/ROCK/sonar/search.pl
[22:13] <owl> well. maybe someone is new to rock and wants to use src? ;)
[22:13] <blindcoder> linked from rl.org
[22:13] <owl> ahso. !
[22:14] <blindcoder> or even rocket search ircii
[22:14] <owl> and: well. why doing ls package/*/ircii e.g.? it would be more clear to have packages/communications/ircii
[22:14] <owl> rocket search?
[22:14] <blindcoder> *sigh*
[22:15] <blindcoder> you _want_ to waste my time, no?
[22:15] <owl> nope :p 
[22:15] <owl> i want to waste my time with cleaning up rock-base and stuff
[22:15] <blindcoder> heh, have fun :)
[22:15] <owl> thx ;p
[22:15] <blindcoder> well, I don't care where the package is as long as it's there
[22:17] <owl> yeah, but that's the wrong opinion. heh, even if you're reading a book about webdesigning, you have to take care much about psychological stuff... you're learning 'the person who uses a website is lazy. don't make them think.'! the same situation you can see often at windows-users. 'i don't want to know something, i just want to use it. i want it to run. don't touch me with details.' -> it won't change - just because people are willed to use a distribution build ki
[22:18] <blindcoder> if they "just want to use it" they won't use ROCK
[22:18] <blindcoder> of that, I'm quite sure
[22:19] <owl> well. but nobody really wants to read much doc. or ask in irc or even search much
[22:19] <blindcoder> then they won't really get far in anything
[22:19] <blindcoder> no matter what they use
[22:19] <tcr> Did you read the essay on osnews(?) that the CLI is more intuitive, ie. user-friendlier, than the typical GUI?
[22:20] <blindcoder> no, but I've known that for years :)
[22:20] <daja77> well that doesn't help ...
[22:20] <owl> blindcoder: well. might you - or better the project - will lose users because of not being intuitive
[22:21] <blindcoder> the only intuitive interface is the nipple. everything else is learned
[22:21] <daja77> lol we have a booth next to gentoo on clt
[22:21] <blindcoder> OMG
[22:21] <daja77> :)
[22:21] <blindcoder> that can only lead to problems *sigh*
[22:22] <daja77> why
[22:22] <owl> nah. intuitive is, if you expect something, and you'll find the searched stuff at the pleace where you had a look
[22:22] <blindcoder> feminine intuition
[22:22] <blindcoder> owl: see, and everyone expects things somewhere else
[22:23] <blindcoder> A expects an IRC client in network/irc, B expects it in GUI/IRC-Client and C under InstantMessaging
[22:23] <blindcoder> so, where do you put it?
[22:23] <tcr> Both.
[22:23] <owl> blindcoder: nah :p there were studies, how people are 'reading' the screen -> e.g. they expect a navi-bar on the left side etc. 
[22:24] <blindcoder> they're just used to it
[22:24] <owl> blindcoder: that's too complicated. you must find more general words. 
[22:24] <owl> blindcoder: nah. not only used. 
[22:24] <blindcoder> if windows hat it on the top in the middle, the study would have found that people expect it there
[22:25] <blindcoder> owl: listen: if you don't have anything else to say but that ROCK stinks, please don't say anything, okay?
[22:25] <owl> blindcoder: nope. btw, it doesn't only work with websites. it also works with 'spam as you can see in magazines' etc.
[22:25] <owl> blindcoder: *ggg* it was just a hint
[22:25] <blindcoder> This is bad and that is bad and that is the worst, I can't hear it anymore, okay?
[22:25] <owl> blindcoder: critic is something which is hated in here? ;)
[22:25] esden (~esden@p3EE21C03.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Remote closed the connection
[22:25] <blindcoder> owl: destructive critic is hated, yes
[22:26] <owl> blindcoder: why destructive? and: destructive for whom?
[22:26] esden (~esden@p3EE21C03.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[22:26] <blindcoder> owl: I've only seen you saying that things are bad, I haven't seen a single direct suggestion that wouldn't require a massive change in direction.
[22:27] <tcr> Her initial problem seems to be valid to me.
[22:27] <blindcoder> that ircii and gnupg are in the base repos?
[22:27] <blindcoder> puh-leeez
[22:28] <owl> blindcoder: what is the point which says 'massive changes are bad'?
[22:28] <blindcoder> owl: the problem is: who makes these changes? YOU?
[22:28] <tcr> No, that it's not easy to find a package if you don't know about how packages are layout on the filesystem.
[22:28] <owl> blindcoder: rock-devs.
[22:28] <owl> (and: i don't count me as rock-dev... )
[22:29] <blindcoder> owl: so you're saying: "I want you to do this but I won't do anything but complain", right?
[22:29] <blindcoder> tcr: what's so difficult about cd package/*/gnupg ?
[22:29] <owl> blindcoder: well. let me say 'if it's going the way it is currently going, then i won't even move my little finger', but might - if it's getting better... why not? what to lose? 
[22:30] <blindcoder> owl: I can't remember you doing anything in a year
[22:31] <owl> blindcoder: well. i did one year completely nothing. nothign for school, for work - yeah, even not working... - because of depression... i was burned out cuz of my special friend at work... -> how to find the motivation and power to work at a project, where the stuff, you were sometimes ranting about, won't be changed?
[22:32] <tcr> blindcoder, Nothing, after some moments of investigations. It (the command) may take a while, though.
[22:32] <blindcoder> I've also been ranting about stuff I don't like about ROCK and started writing up patches for it.
[22:32] <blindcoder> Sometimen they were accepted, sometimes they weren't.
[22:32] <blindcoder> but that's the only way to actually get things changed
[22:33] <owl> blindcoder: yes. but it's also a bit too much hierarchy in the team imho... 
[22:33] <tcr> blindcoder, May I ask what fundamental changes owl supposed to do?
[22:33] <blindcoder> tcr: making ROCK luserfriendly
[22:34] <blindcoder> as in usable for people that can't handly SuSE
[22:34] <_Ragnar_> that's impossible imho
[22:34] <blindcoder> that's one way to put it :)
[22:35] <tcr> Well, I ignored that bit because of brainfuckness.
[22:35] <daja77> http://chemnitzer.linux-tage.de/2005/live/EG.ps fyi
[22:35] <blindcoder> no gv here :(
[22:36] <tcr> ps2pdf
[22:36] <blindcoder> ah
[22:36] <ojh> If I may interject. I thought the reson for ROCK was to be a starting point for creating distros that fill specific need while having a common starting point. So can't ROCK as it is be left for the Linux elete while derived distros (like I'm creating) be for the l-users?
[22:37] <ojh> Or did I misunderstand something . . . . 
[22:37] <tcr> ojh, I can't make sense of that. Would you rephrase, please?
[22:37] <tcr> Yes, it seems to me.
[22:38] <ojh> I thought the reson for ROCK was to be a starting point for creating distros that fill specific needs while having a common starting point. So can't ROCK as it is be for the advanced users while derived distros (like I'm creating) be for the non-techie users?
[22:38] <tcr> Yes, of course.
[22:39] <ojh> Sorry for the poor typing :/
[22:39] <tcr> You have to differentiate between ROCK, the supposed DBK, and ROCK, the Distribution. Unfortunately, there hasn't been ever a clear distinction.
[22:40] <tcr> The distribution (and all others being built with ROCK, the DBK) could certainly be made user-friendly.
[22:40] <owl> well. but even lusers might have heard about 'size/speed/whatever optimized' stuff... might also such users want to have a look
[22:41] <ojh> Would the distinction be like the Debian -> Knoppix,Linspire,Ubantu, *.* . . . . . distinction?
[22:41] <tcr> While creating a distribution is hard and fairly complex stuff that should be made as easy and straightforward as possible, but it won't clearly be ever something Joe Cool could make big clue about.
[22:42] <tcr> If that were possible, there wouldn't be people making money creating commercial distributions.
[22:43] <ojh> tcr: But a common starting point has prooven very usefull in the case of the Debian based systems, both community and commercial.
[22:43] <owl> well. imho it's also depend on marketing and stuff... suse makes the people believe that it's the over-featured, including all they need, luser-friendly, one-click-to-isntall- distro...
[22:45] <tcr> ojh, Knoppix &c are forks.
[22:46] <tcr> Creating those means relatively great political as well as technical baggage.
[22:46] esden (~esden@p3EE21C03.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
[22:47] <ojh> owl: That is the assertion that I am trying to prove false once and for all. :) A minimal core that automaticly and effortlessly extends its self using the same network that fostors the Linux and OSS community. Hence why I find Zero-Install a critical development for the future of Linux and OSS.
[22:48] <owl> ojh: hm? what exactly do you mean?
[22:50] <owl> sorry, i'm in an state of being extremely confused. too much pain inside my head, ears and eyes. 
[22:50] <ojh> owl: Zero Install means that your computer is not an isolated entity but part of the larger network based system. Like the fabled Network Computing, but more . . . decenturalized and community based.
[22:50] <ojh> owl: Get ewll soon, too :)
[22:50] <tcr> ojh, Well, I haven't looked any closer to Z/I, but it's a kind of thing I considered worth it to start a business around it (as part of/including ISP and similiar services)
[22:51] <tcr> around the idea
[22:51] <ojh> tcr: ACK!!!! You must have hacked into my business planning docs!!!!
[22:51] <tcr> I think it's kind of business FLOSS is suited for.
[22:51] <owl> ojh: ah. i c. thx. 
[22:51] <ojh> owl: LOL
[22:52] <blindcoder> btw, where did the L in FLOSS originate from?
[22:52] <blindcoder> it sounds ridiculous
[22:52] <tcr> Libre
[22:52] <blindcoder> I know what it means, but when and where did it appear?
[22:53] <daja77> what the hell ...
[22:54] <ojh> I think that 'Libre' came from the Spanish/Portageese becuse it has a closer meaning to the OSS way of thinking then the english word "free". Or something like that . . . I'm no language expert.
[22:54] <tcr> blindcoder, I think it's the french word for it and, as English is reasonably shared with French, people began to use it. It's clearer to people who have linguistig background in one of the many roman languages.
[22:55] <tcr> It's related to liberty and so on. You get the idea.
[22:55] SteffenP (steffen@pD9E50A6E.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "http://www.bomberclone.de"
[22:55] <blindcoder> I see
[22:56] <tcr> ojh, You ain't German, are you?
[22:56] <ojh> American, US.
[22:58] <ojh> Not far from the Dark Land of Redmond . . . . .
[22:58] <tcr> Might be a bit difficult to get together. :)
[22:59] <ojh> tcr: No more then with my conspierators in Japan. :)
[22:59] <daja77> ojh: your initial question, yes it is used for rela projects in industry, but most companies using it, do not announce that 
[23:00] <ojh> daja77: Naturally . . . .
[23:00] <daja77> yes
[23:00] <daja77> but some told it to clifford on congresses and stuff
[23:01] <ojh> daja77: I don't get that statement. Please restate.
[23:01] <daja77> ppl from such companies told clifford that they are using it, but are not allowed to say that in public
[23:02] <ojh> IC :)
[23:02] <tcr> gn8 all.
[23:02] tcr (~tcr@pD9EABA94.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "Leaving"
[23:02] SteffenP (steffen@pD9E50A6E.dip.t-dialin.net) joined #rocklinux.
[23:02] <ojh> Latter, I gotta go too.
[23:02] <praenti> daja77: what? a Z/I
[23:02] <daja77> a what?
[23:02] <blindcoder> praenti: ROCK
[23:02] <praenti> ahh. understood
[23:03] <daja77> :)
[23:03] <praenti> i only can say to the dicussion before. if you want s.th. be better, than do the change.
[23:04] <ojh> praenti: ZeroInstall I think is what he daja77 was refering to.
[23:04] <praenti> everyone of us does not do ROCK work in his main job
[23:04] ojh (~omer@208-45-99-117.eugn.qwest.net) left #rocklinux.
[23:04] Action: daja77 hasn't followed the discussion
[23:04] <daja77> and no i was talking about rock
[23:04] <owl> and? it wouldn't be such a large step to move some files *thinking*
[23:04] <praenti> we only do it in the spare time :-).
[23:05] <blindcoder> owl: just forget it, please
[23:05] <owl> blindcoder: nope. 
[23:05] <blindcoder> *sigh*
[23:05] <daja77> owl: such discussions are for the mailinglist and not for irc
[23:05] <blindcoder> what else can one do except asking nicely and ignoring someone?
[23:05] <blindcoder> daja77: and they've been done ad absurdum
[23:05] <praenti> owl: please read teh docs. move the files, change the scripts and make some tests
[23:06] <blindcoder> the discussion about categories and repositories is as old as ROCK 1.7-snapshots
[23:06] <owl> blindcoder: i'm not here, to get told 'shut up'
[23:06] <praenti> we have discussed this point also but the majority of us had and still have the opinion that this would be wasted time
[23:06] <owl> praenti: why should i? 
[23:06] <blindcoder> owl: feel free to say something, I feel free to ignore it
[23:06] <praenti> owl: because no other had the time yet :-)
[23:07] <owl> well. and why have you this point of view? explanations?
[23:07] <daja77> owl: t2 moved the packages, perhaps you will be happy with that
[23:07] <owl> blindcoder: well. do, what you want to do. i will not pray to you and say 'oh blindy, pleeeeease don't ignore me'
[23:07] <owl> daja77: dunno. 
[23:08] Action: daja77 neither ^^ 
[23:08] <praenti> the things i have done for rock are things which i was complaining about, so i read docs, worked into the distribution and did my work :-)
[23:08] Action: daja77 shrugs
[23:09] <owl> well. the problem is, that such things require to be accepted by more people
[23:10] <praenti> then start a discussion. check pro and cons and then start work or not
[23:10] <owl> well. i guess i already did it... 
[23:10] <praenti> if the major opinion changes you have done the first step
[23:10] <praenti> not on IRC. there are to less people
[23:11] <owl> hm. and i have too low bandwith for mailinglists... 
[23:11] <_Ragnar_> that's a silly excuse
[23:11] <praenti> i mean on the list. give your idea and give reasons why this is better as you did here
[23:11] <blindcoder> that's not even an excuse...
[23:11] <daja77> rock-devel is low traffic
[23:12] <praenti> i also see it as silly excuse
[23:12] <daja77> unfortunately ...
[23:12] <blindcoder> rock-devel has 255 kB this month
[23:12] <owl> O_o which was the ml which has many mails/day, then? O_o (at least about 1 1/2 years ago?)
[23:12] <blindcoder> yes, 1.5 years ago
[23:13] <owl> that changed that much? O_o
[23:13] <praenti> ok. i will leave. hoping for a discussion start :-)
[23:13] <blindcoder> sadly
[23:13] <blindcoder> praenti: bye
[23:13] <owl> now i'm - shocked or something O_o
[23:14] <blindcoder> AFAICS people (including me) have difficulties focussing on discussions on the list
[23:14] <blindcoder> the discussion about crystal daja77 started some months ago (november?) didn't really start when it was over again
[23:15] <daja77> hm all discussions i started ;)
[23:15] <owl> hmm. any special resons for this? 
[23:15] <blindcoder> only wild-ass guesses
[23:16] <blindcoder> I could probably come up with a handful of WAGs, but that doesn't really mean anything
[23:16] <owl> hmm. so - try your luck :p
[23:16] <blindcoder> query
[23:16] <daja77> yeah tell me ;)
[23:17] <owl> *g*
[23:18] <blindcoder> daja77: I don't want to say something here that would look like blaming someone specific
[23:18] <daja77> you could query me ;)
[23:53] SteffenP (steffen@pD9E50A6E.dip.t-dialin.net) left irc: "http://www.bomberclone.de"
[00:00] --- Mon Jan 24 2005