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[05:49] <madtux> blindcoder, netrunner ... your advices about sockets were VERY helpfull, thanks a million
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[08:23] <blindcoder> madtux: you're welcome
[08:43] <netrunner> moin
[08:45] <clifford> moin
[08:47] <netrunner> anyone tried to install X in another dir? it seems to have the paths hardcoded ...
[08:47] <netrunner> would be a find/sed run to change it ...
[08:47] <owl> moin
[08:47] <blindcoder> netrunner: why would you do this?
[08:48] <blindcoder> IIRC the /usr/lib/X11/ path is more or less standardised
[08:48] <netrunner> blindcoder: I need the nx X11 server for an nx server.
[08:49] <blindcoder> netrunner: since it's a replacement (is it?) what would you need xfree/xorg for?
[08:50] <netrunner> blindcoder: no, I only need it to have applications I want to forward connect to it, because it contains the special transport protocol
[08:51] <blindcoder> hmm
[08:52] <blindcoder> well, I have no idea about nx, really, but if I understand correctly, it's an implementiation of X11, no?
[08:53] <netrunner> nx is only a compression mechanism for the X protocol.
[08:53] <blindcoder> and the problems with having two X11 implementations on one box were quite obvious when praenti tried to do a dual-build with xorg and xfree
[08:53] <blindcoder> netrunner: so it's a patch against xorg/xfree? or what is it?
[08:53] <blindcoder> how is the compression realized?
[08:54] <netrunner> it comes in different flavours. the easiest is starting up a proxy on both sides. which already works quite well and is in rock (nxcomp/nxproxy)
[08:54] <netrunner> the more advanced mechanism needs a modified X11 server running on the remote machine, to which the application connects
[08:55] <blindcoder> so you need the modified X11 server on your local box?
[08:55] <netrunner> you have a nice client on your side that connects to the remote and startsup a full session or whatever you want.
[08:55] <netrunner> no, in the advanced setup the modified x11 server is remote.
[08:56] <netrunner> but I would like to have the opportunity to use the "remote" box with a "normal" X server
[08:56] <blindcoder> so you want to do the equivalent of a remote xdm call
[08:57] <netrunner> yes, but over the cool protocol :)
[08:58] <netrunner> blindcoder: if you have spare time you can try it at www.nomachine.com, there is a free client and you can register for a test account on a poorly connected server
[08:58] <netrunner> I promise you will be impressed.
[08:59] <blindcoder> probably won't work here
[08:59] <blindcoder> windows machine behind company proxy
[09:00] <blindcoder> will try next week (remind me)
[09:01] <owl> windows machine? blindcoder O_O
[09:02] <blindcoder> owl: hello? work?
[09:05] <owl> blindcoder: yeah. but win?
[09:06] <blindcoder> well, siemens _does_ use windows, surprise surprise
[09:08] <owl> wuaergs
[09:08] <blindcoder> you know, puking at me will neither change this nor make me feel better or more inclined to a professional debate about this
[09:10] <owl> blindcoder: hehehe. you know: tell those nice looking oberaffigen krawattenfuzzies, that they want to use OSS *vbeg*
[09:10] <blindcoder> *sigh*
[09:11] <owl> *ggg* yes?
[09:11] <blindcoder> forget it, I only hope you don't _believe_ what you just told me
[09:11] <owl> i belive it
[09:12] <blindcoder> I thought you were smarter than that
[09:14] <owl> *g* why are you defining me as dumb, just because i tell you, that you have to open your mouth and tell those beancounters, what the facts are (more efficient, cheap, blablablah) --> money is something they want to save. why not saving it with OSS?
[09:14] <netrunner> owl: not every problem is solved by just using OSS.
[09:15] <blindcoder> a) I'm just an "externer mitarbeiter"
[09:15] <blindcoder> b) there is no easy and cheap solution to moving a few hundred thousand clients from windows
[09:15] <blindcoder> c) you don't think MS would just let me do that?
[09:15] <blindcoder> d) I'm not credible enough with the people making those decisions
[09:16] <owl> netrunner: which problems? almost everything can be done with OSS. and - using OSS means you have the right to modiify it...
[09:16] <owl> a) and? where's the problem? "externer mitarbeiter" != "person who isn't allow to speak"
[09:17] <blindcoder> owl: but that's not what the people here want, much less could
[09:17] <blindcoder> to continue that list from above
[09:17] <netrunner> owl: to handle OSS software you need a developement infrastructure and developers that care about the bugs.
[09:18] <blindcoder> e) I'm not with a big company that can provide support for thousands of clients
[09:18] <owl> b) ok. this is an argument. but i think that even if the "migrationskosten" are high, it will be not as expensive as using MS Win and so on (e.g. licenses and so)
[09:18] <owl> c) why not?
[09:18] <owl> d) why?
[09:18] <blindcoder> owl: c) because of the money involved?
[09:19] <blindcoder> d) because of a), because of my age and because I won't cur my hair
[09:19] <blindcoder> s/cur/cut/
[09:19] <owl> c) you 're not married to MS.
[09:19] <blindcoder> noone is interested in long-term solutions
[09:19] <blindcoder> everyone is looking for a quick way to save some bucks
[09:20] <blindcoder> and training all employees of siemens does not fall in that category
[09:20] <owl> d) no real problems. you have knowledge - and you should be able to talk to people and make those "managers" orwhatever belive that they want OSS
[09:20] <blindcoder> hell, it'd probably be 20+ years before it starts to pay
[09:20] <owl> blindcoder: 20 years? how do you calc this?
[09:20] <blindcoder> also, the added cost of having to support two infrastructures during the transition
[09:21] <blindcoder> owl: it's a rough estimate based on the number of employees and hardware siemens has
[09:21] <blindcoder> give or take a few years
[09:22] <owl> hmmm. and how do you calc? - and what increases the expenses?
[09:23] <blindcoder> a) teaching of admins
[09:23] <blindcoder> b) teaching of employees
[09:23] <blindcoder> c) additional people to do the transition
[09:24] <blindcoder> d) lost productivity (sic) due to not being familiar with the new interface even though people had the training (it takes time to get used to it)
[09:25] <owl> a) don't tell me, that they have no clue about linux?
[09:25] <owl> b) klicking in kde is not that hard, is it? 
[09:25] <blindcoder> e) moving of whole infrastructures (domains, users, intranet webservers, searching for replacement applications for special stuff)
[09:25] <blindcoder> you really don't get it, do you?
[09:25] <blindcoder> have you _ever_ moved even a single person from windows to linux?
[09:25] <owl> c) "freelancer" - about 2 days (weekend?) with enough freelancer should do
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[09:26] <owl> d) O_O [x] kick dumb people *vbeg*
[09:26] <blindcoder> *sigh*
[09:26] <owl> e) not that hard. 
[09:26] <blindcoder> okay, I terminate the discussion here
[09:27] <blindcoder> you really have no clue about it
[09:28] <owl> *g* it's the same problem like in other companies (not migration-problems), but - there are admins. and there are users. users are so dumb, that they click into a part of a PDF, and complain (at hotline), that the button doesnt work. 
[09:28] <owl> admins: are not able to run a dumb exchange server - every afternoon there are lags && not working servers... productivity is going down - cuz there are no "netzlaufwerker" 
[09:29] Action: netrunner found his old works on nx-X11 
[09:29] <owl> don't tell me, that such "users" and "admins" should not be fired and replaced with people who are not as dumb as bread
[09:30] <netrunner> owl: you don't get the fact that migrating is not a thing of "hey, let's do it".
[09:31] <netrunner> owl: why do you think the project of the munich gov is scheduled for 5 years?
[09:32] <netrunner> owl: do you know how much money they have invest for that migration?
[09:32] <owl> netrunner: yes, because i see no problems there. people are forced to be flexible - and not only with "ueberstunden" also with PCs/OS. 
[09:32] <netrunner> owl: go read some figures.
[09:33] <owl> netrunner: dunno why? maybe because they're beamte which have completely no clue about anything else like "click on the bueroklammer-karl"...
[09:33] <netrunner> owl: no, because the PC/OS is not a priority. it does not matter which os you work with.
[09:33] <netrunner> owl: if switching os introduces problems, it is not done.
[09:33] <owl> in a company like siemens i don't expect such people... 
[09:34] <blindcoder> owl: well, then welcome to reality. We've been expecting you.
[09:35] <owl> you should not say "you want to switch to linux because it's free", but because of financial reasons
[09:35] <netrunner> owl: also linux does not come for free.
[09:35] <owl> blindcoder: wonderful. thx. *taking the next UFO to earth*
[09:36] <owl> netrunner: why? if you want a commercial distro or support... 
[09:37] <netrunner> owl: a company _always_ takes software with _long_ support contracts. and with linux, they are expensive as it is the only possibility to get money out of linux business.
[09:38] <netrunner> owl: why don't you take a job in the IT of a big company, and see yourself? If you know a bit about what we are talking, come back and we can have a profound discussion.
[09:39] <owl> netrunner: and why do they so? i guess it's would be more cheap to get maybe a small group of people inside of the company more experienced with linux... people whoes job is not only support (for company memberes), but also other things (like coding)
[09:39] <owl> netrunner: give me one.
[09:41] <owl> (i'm not between 25 - 30 years, have not some years of experience, and i don't have a diplom or some other dumb white papers where your "knowledge" is written on)
[09:41] <blindcoder> owl: you do realise thatjust getting your foot into the door of big companies requires very good connections, tons of luck, lots of patience and the money to survive from start to finish without seeing a penny from the company?
[09:43] <netrunner> blindcoder: I don't get the money point in your last statement.
[09:43] <blindcoder> netrunner: siemens is best known for their bad morale with paying bills
[09:43] <blindcoder> netrunner: usually not within fourty days
[09:44] <owl> blindcoder: yeah. and to be hones - i don't want those companies (mostly too hierarchic)... - but even if i would really like to get in one of those companies, there would not even be a chance for me
[09:44] <blindcoder> netrunner: and unless you have a _very_ good contract you need some financial cushioning
[09:44] <netrunner> blindcoder: ok, I am not external.
[09:44] <blindcoder> owl: well, but siemens _is_ such a company
[09:44] <blindcoder> owl: so your whole point is moot
[09:44] <netrunner> owl: thougt about doing an abitur and studying? would help with that :)
[09:45] <owl> netrunner: nah, i'm not interested in this. 
[09:45] <owl> blindcoder: yeah. and i never said, that i want to work at siemens, did i?
[09:46] <owl> or in audi, or eads or how they are all called
[09:46] <blindcoder> owl: but you want me to convert them? HAH!
[09:46] <owl> blindcoder: yes :)
[09:46] <owl> blindcoder: you're already a member of this company - so: open your mouth :p
[09:46] <netrunner> owl: you shouldn't discuss topics you don't have knowledge about.
[09:47] <blindcoder> no, I'm not
[09:47] <owl> netrunner: why do i have no knowledge about it?
[09:47] <blindcoder> owl: let's make a compromise: you don't tell me how to do my IT work, and I don't tell you how to do your journalism
[09:47] <owl> blindcoder: externer _mitarbeiter_
[09:47] <blindcoder> you know nothing about my work, and I know nothing about yours
[09:48] <owl> blindcoder: what does journalismn have to do with it? 
[09:48] <blindcoder> owl: well, it's what you do and seem to be good at
[09:48] <blindcoder> owl: IT is what I do and am good at
[09:48] <netrunner> owl: siemens is in fact developing a linux distribution.
[09:49] <owl> blindcoder: depends. i'm good at it, too. 
[09:50] <owl> netrunner: yes?
[09:50] <netrunner> owl: see :)
[09:51] <owl> netrunner: see? - nothing. it's just a part of company... and if they might plan to migrate in some years... then it's still too late
[09:52] <blindcoder> owl: you know, I think people like you make the whole FOSS-community look bad
[09:52] <netrunner> owl: they don't plan to migrate. it is thought for a specific use where it is reasonably useful.
[09:53] <owl> blindcoder: why? 
[09:53] <blindcoder> owl: because of this no-think-just-do attitude
[09:53] <owl> netrunner: ah ja. and where is it not useful?
[09:53] <netrunner> owl: because you argue without reason.
[09:53] <owl> blindcoder: nah, i have told you my thoughts. 
[09:53] <daja77> .oO (for several pages)
[09:54] <blindcoder> heh, moin daja77 
[09:54] <daja77> hey blindy
[09:54] <owl> netrunner: where did you see no reasons?
[09:55] <blindcoder> owl: ask the other way round: where _is_ reason?
[09:56] <owl> blindcoder: finance, having _free_, modifiable software which could be developed to the needs, ...
[09:56] <daja77> uninteresting for people that do not develop software
[09:57] <netrunner> blindcoder: she is right that linux is cheap for companies. unfortunately it is not cost-effective :)
[09:57] <blindcoder> owl: but that's not what sie... yes, thanks, daja77 
[09:57] <netrunner> moin daja77 :)
[09:57] <owl> daja77: hi
[09:57] <blindcoder> netrunner: it is if you use it from the beginning. but transitioning is not
[09:57] <daja77> hi netrunner 
[09:57] <daja77> they are no startup companies ...
[09:58] <blindcoder> indeed
[09:58] <owl> nah, why is it uninteresting for them? you could argument then that things which could be done with having high costs (e.g. for a windows-terminal-service-license ) with free software, which could modified for the companies needs
[09:59] <daja77> who modifies it? at what price?
[10:00] <owl> members of company (freelancers - project-specific or something, or internal members - who have other "main-projects" )
[10:01] <blindcoder> freelancers are expensive
[10:01] <blindcoder> I cost siemens 55 EUR an hour
[10:01] <blindcoder> and that's cheap!
[10:01] <daja77> indeed
[10:01] <blindcoder> internal members: who takes care of their main projects during the time?
[10:01] <blindcoder> time includes: checking the requirements
[10:01] <blindcoder> checking available solutions
[10:02] <blindcoder> checking how near those solutions come to the individual need
[10:02] <blindcoder> checking the quality of feasible existing solutions
[10:02] <blindcoder> reading into the source of those solutions
[10:02] <blindcoder> changing the individual change
[10:02] <blindcoder> bah
[10:02] <blindcoder> making the individual changes
[10:02] <daja77> ;)
[10:02] <blindcoder> testing those changes
[10:02] <blindcoder> roll-out of the cahnges
[10:02] <owl> blindcoder: maybe their collegues? or nobody for a short time. they could do e.g. 6 hours /day: main-project, 2 hours/day: less-prior-project (e.g. customization)
[10:03] <blindcoder> how long do oyu think that takes?
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[10:03] <blindcoder> even on full time you're looking at at least a month for small to medium projects FULL TIME
[10:03] <owl> blindcoder: maybe 1 or 2 days
[10:04] <owl> a month? O_O nah, never!
[10:04] <blindcoder> owl: we're not talking some cheesy little php application to manage your photos here
[10:05] <blindcoder> where you want a comment to the photo displayed beneath it
[10:05] <owl> blindcoder: what are we talking about,t hen? about "rewrite kde to have pink background"?
[10:05] <owl> (rewrite because the source is "unschoen"?)
[10:05] <blindcoder> people here at big companies want meetings, presentations, dead tree stuff
[10:06] <owl> --> like in small companies, too. 
[10:06] <blindcoder> also, stuff that can be handled in one or two days is too good to be true anyway
[10:06] <blindcoder> there's no such thing
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[10:06] <blindcoder> anyway I got work to do
[10:06] <blindcoder> bbl
[10:06] <daja77> :)
[10:06] Nick change: BoS_ -> BoS
[10:08] <owl> blindcoder: it is. at least at my side. e.g. migrating a whole database with some thousand entries to another system took me - with working into source code 2 days. writing req-spec. took another day --> 3 days, and now, the final dumb dead-paper-work took another 3 days -> 1 week, and everything was migrated and my special friends with "schlips" are quite lucky. 
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[10:45] <netrunner> hm. now I have built myself a /opt/nx containing the nx X11 server. now lacking a client to connect to it :)
[10:46] <netrunner> running the nx windows client under wine has the problem that it doesn't display any text in the windows. anybody had this problem?
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[11:13] <netrunner> http://fun.sdinet.de/pics/english/BibleWarningLabel.jpg
[11:15] <daja77> already know that ;)
[12:55] <daja77> whoa we have an openoffice package
[12:55] <blindcoder> yeah :)
[12:56] <daja77> unfortunately stf isn't here ;)
[12:57] <blindcoder> why?
[12:57] <daja77> i could have hilighted him for that :D
[12:58] <blindcoder> heh
[15:04] <netrunner> daja77: how long does it take to build? a week? :)
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[16:02] <netrunner> what is the path you can manipulate to change the directory order with libraries
[16:02] <blindcoder> LD_LIBRARY_PATH
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[17:22] <treo> hi
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[18:10] <mendieta48> hi
[18:10] <mendieta48> I have a problem with tar
[18:11] <mendieta48> see
[18:11] <blindcoder> hi
[18:11] <mendieta48> I have log200506.tar
[18:11] <mendieta48> this old 3 files: log20050601.tar.bz2, log20050602.tar.bz2, log20050603.tar.bz2
[18:12] <mendieta48> when I untar I have this:
[18:12] <blindcoder> yes
[18:12] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r--  1 root root 23060480 Jun  3 13:05 log200506.tar
[18:12] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r--  1 root root      209 Jun  1 23:30 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:12] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r--  1 root root      209 Jun  2 23:30 log20050602.tar.bz2
[18:12] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r--  1 root root      208 Jun  3 13:00 log20050603.tar.bz2
[18:12] <mendieta48> why?
[18:12] <blindcoder> what's in the tarballs?
[18:13] <mendieta48> log200506.tar old this 3 tarballs (.tar.bz2)
[18:14] <blindcoder> hm
[18:14] <blindcoder> doesn't really make sense
[18:14] <mendieta48> yes
[18:14] <blindcoder> what does tar tfv log200506.tar say?
[18:15] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r-- root/root    245731 2005-06-01 08:30:10 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:15] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r-- root/root    188016 2005-06-01 09:00:09 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:15] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r-- root/root    544139 2005-06-01 09:30:17 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:15] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r-- root/root     16802 2005-06-01 10:00:02 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:15] <mendieta48> -rw-r--r-- root/root   1107037 2005-06-01 10:30:40 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:15] <mendieta48> I have copies of a same file
[18:15] <mendieta48> I use -U (update)
[18:15] <blindcoder> well, than that makes sense
[18:15] <blindcoder> tar, being designed as the _T_ape _AR_chive, writes sequential
[18:16] <blindcoder> that also means, that you can extract old versions of the log20050601.tar.bz2 files
[18:16] <mendieta48> who?
[18:16] <mendieta48> sorry
[18:16] <mendieta48> how?
[18:17] <mendieta48> I need this: -rw-r--r-- root/root    544139 2005-06-01 09:30:17 log20050601.tar.bz2
[18:17] <mendieta48> how I can extract them?
[18:18] <blindcoder> let me check
[18:18] <mendieta48> ok
[18:21] <mendieta48> -K, --starting-file F  option?
[18:22] <blindcoder> you still need to tell tar an end file then
[18:28] <blindcoder> sorry, can't help you there
[18:29] <blindcoder> you might want to ask at bug-tar@gnu.org if someone knows
[18:29] <mendieta48> ok
[18:30] <blindcoder> or try ##linux
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[18:37] <mendieta48> ok
[18:37] <mendieta48> thanks
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[18:51] <netrunner> SUCCESS :)
[18:51] <netrunner> nx server running :)
[19:27] <owl> re
[19:42] <blindcoder> re owl
[19:42] <owl> thx
[19:42] <owl> blindcoder: hamsti is still alive! :))) 
[19:42] <blindcoder> hey cool
[19:42] <blindcoder> cured?
[19:43] <owl> yeah x 2. he has a "warze" - which is "abgebunden" right now and will fall apart within the next about 2 - 3 days :)
[19:43] <blindcoder> nice to hear
[19:43] <owl> (and TA said "normally won't grow again") 
[19:43] <owl> yeah :)
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[22:36] Nick change: netrunne1 -> netrunner
[23:49] [anders-mcafee] (~snafu@82-68-84-57.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk) joined #rocklinux.
[23:50] <daja77> netrunner: no idea haven't build it yet
[00:00] --- Sat Jun  4 2005