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[08:46] <blindcoder> boit
[08:46] <blindcoder> moin
[08:47] <giftnuss> moin
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[12:07] <th> the bc segfault is not rock specific
[12:17] Action: netrunner wildly guesses it's gcc optimization :)
[12:18] <netrunner> can anybody recommend something affordable for backup?
[12:22] <blindcoder> o_O
[12:22] <blindcoder> line 65:  1726 Segmentation fault      (core dumped) grep -q '[0-9]{10}' <<< ${line}
[12:22] <blindcoder> what the fuck?
[12:23] <blindcoder> netrunner: DVD-RW
[12:25] <blindcoder> oh, cool
[12:26] <blindcoder> line="abc"
[12:26] <blindcoder> grep -q '[0-9]{10}' <<< ${line}
[12:26] <blindcoder> works
[12:26] <blindcoder> unset line
[12:26] <blindcoder> grep -q '[0-9]{10}' <<< ${line}
[12:26] <blindcoder> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
[12:26] <blindcoder> seems to be a bash problem
[12:27] <th> <<< is feed string as stdin?
[12:27] <th> bash-2.05b$ cksum <<< foobar
[12:27] <th> 857691210 7
[12:27] <th> bash-2.05b$ cksum <<< ${line}
[12:27] <th> Segmentation fault (core dumped)
[12:27] <th> line was not set
[12:27] <blindcoder> yes
[12:27] <th> confirmed
[12:27] <th> it's all gcc bugs ;)
[12:29] <blindcoder> hehe
[12:29] <th> but this bash thing is even buggy on gcc-3.2.3
[12:30] <blindcoder> yeah
[12:31] <blindcoder> also on gcc34 3.4.5 0
[12:37] <blindcoder> th: got a bash3 lying around to test?
[12:51] <th> blindcoder: no
[12:52] <th> oh wait
[12:52] <th> recent crystal?
[12:52] <th> no. still bash2
[12:59] <netrunner> blindcoder: capacity should be much more than a DVD
[13:27] <th> netrunner: if it's not to be relocated very frequently - then a harddisk is a good idea
[13:56] <blindcoder> netrunner: or a rented server somewhere in a data center
[14:34] <th> netrunner: private or business?
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[17:59] <netrunner> th: for myself. but I want to have something else than a harddisk.
[18:04] <blindcoder> netrunner: why?
[18:37] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: IDE harddisk in an external USB case is a nice combo imo ;)
[18:43] <th> stf^rocklinux: btw the bc segfault appears on "arch" as well.
[18:43] <th> is "arch" a distro?
[18:43] <th> i only got that report after asking someone to let someone test bc on gcc403
[18:43] <stf^rocklinux> th: iirc there is a distro called arch
[18:44] <blindcoder> yes, arch linux
[18:45] <blindcoder> IIRC they were the ones ripping lots of ROCK code without so much as saying 'thanks, suckers'
[18:46] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: that's why their distro looked so familiar to me ^^
[18:46] <blindcoder> *laughs*
[18:48] <th> and that's why their bc segfaults now as well? ;)
[18:49] <blindcoder> well, it probably means that they can blame all their problems on us
[18:49] <stf^rocklinux> th: the problem arises when bc is compiled with gcc40, doesn't it?
[18:49] <blindcoder> blindcoder@fuzzy:~$ echo 1 | bc
[18:49] <blindcoder> 1
[18:49] <blindcoder> blindcoder@fuzzy:~$ mine -q gcc34
[18:49] <blindcoder> gcc34 3.4.3 0
[18:50] <th> stf^rocklinux: yes with gcc40 which is 4.0.3 at the time being
[18:50] <th> blindcoder: bc -l please
[18:50] <th> blindcoder: and with gcc=gcc40 please ;)
[18:51] <blindcoder> blindcoder@fuzzy:~$ echo 1 | bc -l
[18:51] <blindcoder> 1
[18:51] <stf^rocklinux> maybe there's already a patch around...
[18:51] <blindcoder> blindcoder@fuzzy:~$ echo 1 | gcc=gcc40 bc -l
[18:51] <blindcoder> 1
[18:51] <blindcoder> :)
[18:52] <th> harr
[18:55] <blindcoder> sooo
[18:55] <blindcoder> that checkversion webthingie
[18:55] <blindcoder> how do I get an account on that?
[18:55] <blindcoder> or rather
[18:55] <blindcoder> how do I log in if the form doesn't work?
[19:00] <blindcoder> and someone please apply 2006031713044803603
[19:08] <netrunner> blindcoder: because harddisks depend on the functionality of their motor.
[19:11] <stf^rocklinux> wow, looks like we use the wrong set of patches for bc :D
[19:11] <stf^rocklinux> th: try to build bc with the patches from http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/patches/downloads/bc/ instead of the patches from trunk
[19:11] <stf^rocklinux> th: works here :)
[19:13] <blindcoder> anyone else think it strange that we are talking about 'sets of patches' to get stuff worknig?
[19:13] <blindcoder> s/strange/sad/
[19:13] <blindcoder> netrunner: and magnet tapes depend on durability of magnetising, motor in drive and a few dozen other things
[19:13] <th> stf^rocklinux: why do we need the patches at all?
[19:14] <th> blindcoder: no. the motor in drive can go fubar - you just need another drive and you have your data
[19:14] <th> blindcoder: that's incredibly expensive for a hdd
[19:14] <stf^rocklinux> th: without any patches, bc still segfaults... I haven't tested yet which patch exactly fixes this
[19:15] <blindcoder> th: yeah, but you _can_ get another motor
[19:15] <th> stf^rocklinux: right. i tested the vanilla bc. it segfaults
[19:15] <blindcoder> th: try getting your data from a demagnetised tape
[19:15] <th> blindcoder: try getting your data from a demagnetised hdd
[19:16] <th> when we compare hdd with tape - then demagnetisation is no point - it's fatal to both
[19:17] <blindcoder> so on what grounds would one compare them?
[19:17] <blindcoder> cost per gigabyte?
[19:17] <th> many factors. you named "durability of magnetising, motor in drive and a few dozen other things"
[19:17] <th> i just voided the first
[19:17] <th> and the second before.
[19:18] <th> would be nice if you enlighten us with the few dozen other things ;)
[19:18] <th> it's slower - that's clear
[19:18] <th> you need to buy a drive which might be pricey
[19:18] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: in the case of bc, it ought to be only on patch, I just don't know which :S
[19:19] <th> stf^rocklinux: it's only three of them. so building bc three times should reveal this
[19:19] <icelbox> hm, even at work we go for backup on HDDs... tapes are only to fulfill law requirements
[19:19] <blindcoder> th: thanks for applying
[19:19] <th> icelbox: backup on HDD is fine as long as you protect from human failure.
[19:20] <th> icelbox: if you want to protect from fire+robbery then you need to transport your data outside. and transporting HDDs on a daily basis is no good idea
[19:20] <th> blindcoder: i've seen no big harm.
[19:20] <blindcoder> th: price being one, ease of backups another
[19:20] <icelbox> th: that's what we have tapes for... for disaster recovery...
[19:21] <blindcoder> th: I can for example create a mirror of two disks, pull out one disk, put in another. instant backup
[19:21] <icelbox> the backup hardware is located in the completely opposite side of our buildings
[19:21] <th> blindcoder: you can dd if=disk of=tape and the reverse later.
[19:21] <blindcoder> th: not on a running system
[19:21] <th> blindcoder: of course
[19:22] <th> blindcoder: why not?
[19:22] <icelbox> can you guarantee that /dev/tape is readable after transporting it two times? ;)
[19:22] <blindcoder> th: because the filesystem changes while dd is running
[19:22] <th> icelbox: more than with a hdd
[19:22] <blindcoder> th: I wouldn't risk my data integrity on that
[19:22] <th> blindcoder: it does change in your scenario as well
[19:22] <icelbox> well, we did a bare metal restore test... it failed, because the tape was not readable...
[19:23] <icelbox> and those tapes are freaking expensive :(
[19:23] <th> icelbox: i guess someone had this experience with hdd's too
[19:23] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: generally speaking, having to apply an almost one-year old patch to a basic program to fix a serious bug sucks -.-
[19:23] <icelbox> probably, though our hdd backups are raid 4 with double parity ;)
[19:23] <th> icelbox: yea
[19:24] <icelbox> so two defetive harddrives don't matter :) but what I like most about it are the snapshots :D
[19:24] <icelbox> users can recover from their mistakes on their own, without a 12 hour restore from tape ^^
[19:24] <th> icelbox: true
[19:24] <blindcoder> th: I think the integrity in pulling out the disk is better. for one thing, you can plan it and prepare for it (shut down your server processes for a few minutes)
[19:25] <th> icelbox: but we are talking of disaster recovery. not of human-failure-recovery
[19:25] <blindcoder> th: mind you, I've never tried it
[19:25] <icelbox> it's everything a time/money tradeoff :)
[19:25] <blindcoder> I'm totally going out on a limb here
[19:26] <th> (time+money)/risk
[19:28] <icelbox> hm, at least I experienced no difference in risk
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[20:06] <netrunner> why are build/* 700?
[20:08] Action: netrunner is happy that clifford does not work as webdesigner :)
[20:15] <stf^rocklinux> th: bc fix is in 2006042520132717851
[20:18] <netrunner> stf^rocklinux: I'll soon test your mine patch
[20:23] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: nice! :legacy package creation with mine has currently one limitation: if mine adds files to a legacy package (instead of creating a new one), some files will become "modified/duplicate"
[20:28] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: this should be fixed sooner or later. I've implemented a fully working :legacy package creation in scripts/Build-Pkg in the meantime.
[20:29] <netrunner> stf^rocklinux: which only works if you have the old version in your build tree.
[20:31] <fake> moin
[20:31] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: hm? Build-Pkg solely relies on /var/adm files for that, and you can build packages inside your real root with Build-Pkg.
[20:32] <netrunner> stf^rocklinux: yes, inside the build environment.
[20:32] Action: netrunner prefers to have this logic in mine
[20:33] <fake> stf^rocklinux: have you noticed /etc/passwd etc missing with latest patches applied?
[20:33] <stf^rocklinux> moin fake
[20:35] <stf^rocklinux> fake: not really, passwd didn't work in my latest test build iirc...
[20:35] <fake> stf^rocklinux: i guess postsysfiles.in in the sysfiles package isn't such a good idea
[20:35] <fake> stf^rocklinux: i'll rediff your patch to add it to etc_group.txt directly
[20:36] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: Build-Pkg and mine are two different ways to install packages, so the logic needs to be in both
[20:38] <stf^rocklinux> fake: ok, thx
[20:38] <fake> let's see wether that helps...
[20:40] <netrunner> stf^rocklinux: if you put it in Build-Pkg, it will already be used during build-target.
[20:43] <fake> argh!
[20:43] <fake> passwd is still not in sysfile's flist!
[20:43] <fake> how on earth can that be?
[20:44] <th> which patch did break this?
[20:44] <fake> th: i have *NO* idea
[20:44] <fake> it's the 'fakes real journal'
[20:44] <th> fake: can we just blame blindcoder?
[20:45] <fake> let me see...
[20:45] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: when Build-Pkg has finished, meta-data of previously installed packages will be lost, so Build-Pkg has to create legacy packages.
[20:45] <fake> hm, okay
[20:45] <fake> maybe i need to remove all of the files that *should* be part of sysfiles too
[20:45] <stf^rocklinux> fake: try removing the sysfiles package with mine...
[20:45] <stf^rocklinux> fake: or only the passwd file
[20:45] <blindcoder> th: no
[20:46] <fake> stf^rocklinux: ack, i did ./scripts/Create-ErrList -remove, which uses mine -rs, but as passwd/group were not part of the flist, they were left over
[20:47] Action: fake deleting files in working hosts's sysfiles pkg
[20:48] <stf^rocklinux> netrunner: another way would be to use shadowfs for Build-Pkg, so previous packages are not overwritten, then create a binary package and install it into the real root :)
[20:52] <stf^rocklinux> fake: what do you think about using shadowfs for Build-Pkg?
[20:52] <fake> aaah, now passwd and group are back again.
[20:53] <fake> stf^rocklinux: it was meant to be used for building as non-root user, initially ;)
[20:53] <fake> stf^rocklinux: besides the livecd useage.
[20:53] <stf^rocklinux> fake: that'd be another advantage of using it, I guess :)
[20:55] <fake> th: you have a duplicate patch in sm (2006042520383126358)
[20:55] <th> ahh
[20:55] <fake> vs 2006042520383126358 
[20:55] <fake> narf
[20:56] <fake> vs 2006042100374410760 
[20:56] <fake> w8
[20:56] <fake> ignore me
[20:56] <th> 2006042100374410760 is koffice update ;)
[20:56] <fake> yours is *way* cleaner
[20:57] <th> fake: what's my patch id?
[20:57] <fake> th 0760 at the end.
[20:58] <fake> the 6358 is daja's
[20:58] <th> that's koffice update
[20:58] <th> fake: 2006042100374410760 and 2006042520383126358 are not even related
[20:58] <fake> what?
[20:58] <fake> daja77_: koffice update, th: koffice update?
[20:58] <fake> 2006041215311931422 
[20:58] <fake> sorry
[20:59] <fake> damn windows copy & paste, i will never get used to it
[21:00] <th> ahhhhhh
[21:00] <th> now i see
[22:04] <fake> i'm gonna apply some stuff now
[22:08] <blindcoder> I'm going to sleep now
[22:08] <blindcoder> got a potential new flat to visit at 8 am
[22:08] <blindcoder> I still wonder how I am supposed to get out of bed
[22:08] <blindcoder> anyway, bye
[22:08] <stf^rocklinux> gn8 blindcoder
[22:09] <th> fake: please include the bc fix from stf
[22:09] <th> 20:10:41 < stf^rocklinux> th: bc fix is in 2006042520132717851
[22:14] <fake> th: ok
[22:14] <fake> th: should i apply your koffice update, too ?
[22:15] <fake> th: the one from daja worked, so it's just the localisation stuff that could be broken
[22:15] <th> yes
[22:15] <th> i think that's safe
[22:15] <th> i can start a vanilla build then if you like
[22:15] <th> then you can go ahead with new patches
[22:15] <fake> th: okay
[22:16] <fake> 7563
[22:20] <th> crystal is now the default target.
[22:20] <th> is that new?
[22:20] <fake> yes.
[22:20] <fake> before, it was generic.
[22:20] <th> yea
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[22:33] <netrunner> hm, why was kim still in my sm queue ...
[22:37] <th> who's kim?
[22:41] <stf^rocklinux> clifford: cowfs with COW_RO=/ and COW_RW=/mnt/cowfs_rw doesn't work as expected...
[22:46] <fake> th: build running
[22:46] Action: fake off for cooking
[22:46] <fake> cya
[22:46] <th> fake: vanilla build as well
[22:52] <netrunner> th: kde image manager or something like this.
[22:53] <th> k
[23:02] <th> yea cool - bc is fixed ;)
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 26 2006