[00:01] <th> you just created a journal?no
[00:01] <th> hmm
[00:01] <th> now i got a sm crash
[00:02] <stf^rocklinux> ok :) I'll call it "Feierabend" for today - cheers!
[00:02] <th> cya
[00:02] <stf^rocklinux> I'm not leaving. Just opening a can of beer ^^
[00:03] <stf^rocklinux> besides it's a new day now. lol
[00:03] <th> not yet
[00:04] <stf^rocklinux> don't trust your clock!
[00:05] <th> i do
[00:05] <th> 23:59:19 < th> not yet
[00:05] <stf^rocklinux> [00:01:28] <th> not yet
[00:06] <th> don't trust your clock!
[00:07] <th> stf^rocklinux: should i add perl to 2 only or remove it from 3 as well?
[00:07] <stf^rocklinux> build it only in stage 2, that should be sufficient
[00:08] <th> not that something is missing then, because it was not yet built
[00:08] <th> it's not built in stage5
[00:08] <th> hmm
[00:08] <stf^rocklinux> btw. I don't trust my computer's clock. It is drifting for some reason...
[00:09] <th> yea - i figured.
[00:13] <th> http://iso.rocklinux.de/rock-ftp/official/vanilla/bbs-r7564-tars/
[00:17] <stf^rocklinux> well, I don't know about the specifics of stage 2. You could first build perl in stage 2 only, then rebuild it in stage 3 and compare the resulting gems.
[00:21] <th> yea - sounds like a plan
[00:21] <th> cpu intense plan.
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[00:24] <stf^rocklinux> you can also build it in stages 2 and 3, which would be safer but maybe also waste some cpu time
[00:28] <stf^rocklinux> now I think the latter option is preferable, following the famous sentence: "Premature optimization is the root of all evil"
[00:29] <th> hmm
[00:29] <th> that would mean stoping this journal build and changing the perl5 patch again
[00:29] <th> let's see where it goes first
[00:31] <stf^rocklinux> you don't need to stop the build for that simple a chance as long as you haven't reached stage 2 yet
[00:31] <stf^rocklinux> after all it would only stages 2 and up
[00:32] <stf^rocklinux> ... would only affect ...
[00:32] <th> well the build only runs for 2 minutes
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[01:52] <stf^rocklinux> you're right, let's see if perl builds in stage 2 first 
[02:10] <th> i think we need some unicode fonts
[02:10] <th> my xterm cant show greek manpages
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[02:30] <stf^rocklinux> I just found "uterm - start script for a Unicode capable terminal window" on the net - it's part of mined
[02:30] <stf^rocklinux> http://www.towo.net/mined/uterm.html
[02:30] <th> hmm but it's not xterm. and xterm SHOULD be capable  of it
[02:31] <stf^rocklinux> it's a script starting xterm
[02:31] <th> hmm
[02:31] <th> i thought that thing would be called uxterm
[02:32] <stf^rocklinux> "Many systems are not yet properly configured to enable easy and straight-forward use of Unicode in a text-mode terminal environment (such as Xterm or Rxvt). The purpose of uterm is to help users to start a terminal with good Unicode capabilities without much hassle."
[02:32] <stf^rocklinux> It doesn't seem to be limited to xterm
[02:33] <th> % /usr/share/mined/uterm
[02:33] <th> xterm:  bad command line option "-u8"
[02:33] <th> hehe
[02:39] <stf^rocklinux> th: here too, but the xterm manual says -u8 should work...
[02:39] <th> newer mined version makes no change
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[02:41] <th>   --enable-wide-chars     enable wide-character support
[02:41] <th> #if OPT_WIDE_CHARS
[02:41] <th> {"-u8",..   "*utf8",.   XrmoptionNoArg,..   (caddr_t) "2"},
[02:41] <th> {"+u8",..   "*utf8",.   XrmoptionNoArg,..   (caddr_t) "0"},
[02:41] <th> #endif
[02:42] <stf^rocklinux> oh
[02:42] <th> rebuilding xterm with that configure option
[02:43] <th> works now
[02:43] <th> still mined's uterm does not select a proper font
[02:44] <th> so something else is broken as well
[02:44] <th> propably the font
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[02:50] <stf^rocklinux> the uterm man pages indicates misc-fixed Unicode fonts are the best ones: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs-fonts.html
[02:50] <th> those are contained in xorg
[02:51] <th> and even after emerging terminus-fonts xmined finds it and tries to set it - but fails
[02:51] <stf^rocklinux> sure? "I have also made them available to X.Org for inclusion into one of the next official X11 distributions as a replacement for the current ISO 8859-1 BDF fonts (hopefully they will be in X11R6.7)"
[02:51] <stf^rocklinux> (from the link above)
[02:51] <th> yea i read that
[02:52] <th> at least all files that wanted to be created from it were already existing
[02:56] <th> still no luck after installing
[03:11] <stf^rocklinux> th: try 'LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 xterm -u8 -fn \
[03:11] <stf^rocklinux> > '-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1' &
[03:11] <stf^rocklinux> '
[03:12] <stf^rocklinux> that made the Euro character appear in xterm here
[03:12] <th> works with LANG=C as well
[03:12] <stf^rocklinux> (copied from http://eyegene.ophthy.med.umich.edu/unicode/)
[03:13] <th> did you install the ucs fonts?
[03:13] <th> or is this still standard fonts?
[03:14] <th> and what happens if you enter a "" in that xterM/
[03:14] <th> xterm?
[03:14] <stf^rocklinux> that always worked
[03:14] <stf^rocklinux> and still does
[03:14] <th> for me in -u8 xterm pressing  shows two glyphs
[03:14] <th> first the [] then the 
[03:14] <stf^rocklinux> I installed the ucs fixed-misc font
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[03:15] <th> and then i can backspace three chars
[03:15] <th> no not three chars but two. but cursor moves three positions to left
[03:16] <th> stf^rocklinux: do you see strange behaviour when backspacing multiple ?
[03:17] <stf^rocklinux> th: yes, I can backspace more characters than I typed (but only in the xterm started like above but with LC_CTYPE=C)
[03:17] <th> this effect does not depend on any environment variable for me
[03:18] <stf^rocklinux> the link above states that "For both mlterm and xterm, you will need to set your locale to a UTF-8 locale."
[03:19] <th> doing this does not fix the backspacing issue for me
[03:21] <stf^rocklinux> and you started xterm exactly like above?
[03:22] <th> no i exported the environment before
[03:23] <th> export LANG=de_DE.UTF-8
[03:23] <th> export LC_ALL=de_DE.UTF-8
[03:23] <th> export LC_CTYPE=de_DE.UTF-8
[03:23] <th> xterm -u8 -fn '-misc-fixed-medium-r-semicondensed--13-120-75-75-c-60-iso10646-1'
[03:23] <th> then there is the backspacing issue
[03:23] <th> that's different for you?
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[03:29] <stf^rocklinux> works here if any of the three environment variables above are set to an (de or en) UTF-8 locale
[03:30] <stf^rocklinux> if not I get the same backspace misbehaviour
[03:30] <th> so if you do all 4 lines as i pasted it works for you?
[03:31] <stf^rocklinux> yes
[03:31] <th> that's strange
[03:31] <th> can you do an explizit "setxkbmap de" before?
[03:31] <th> s/z/c/
[03:31] <stf^rocklinux> before starting xterm?
[03:31] <th> before typing the 
[03:31] <th> anywhen
[03:32] <stf^rocklinux> makes no difference
[03:32] <th> hmm
[03:32] <th> you have the separated xterm package?
[03:33] <stf^rocklinux> yes, version 211
[03:33] <th> only added --enable-wide...? 
[03:33] <stf^rocklinux> yes
[03:33] <th> hmmmmmmm
[03:33] <th> that is strange
[03:33] <stf^rocklinux> usual locale configuration with stone and kde
[03:33] <th> kde?
[03:34] <th> well stone still has LANG=C but i thought i overwrote it by setting the env
[03:35] <stf^rocklinux> control center -> Regional & Accessibility -> (Country/Region) and (Keyboard Layout)
[03:35] <th> yea but how can kde influence this behaviour
[03:35] <th> it's xterm
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[03:40] <th> anyhow
[03:40] <th> it's pretty late already
[03:40] <th> i better be off
[03:40] <stf^rocklinux> yeah... good night :)
[03:41] <th> same to you
[03:41] <th> :q
[03:41] <th> oh damn
[03:42] <th> i AM tired ;)
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[03:44] <stf^rocklinux> Surprisingly I'm not really tired... but I'll go to bed anyways ^^
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[09:15] <blindcoder> th: bash misc/archive/sonar.sh
[11:19] <blindcoder> *** glibc detected *** malloc(): memory corruption: 0x0807b608 ***
[11:20] <blindcoder> YAY!
[12:02] <netrunner> moin
[12:02] <daja77_> moin
[12:02] <netrunner> what do you think about switching the newdelete mechanism from source cksum to package version, which would make more sense imho?
[12:06] <daja77_> package version does not always change for packages with "silent" updates ..
[12:07] <netrunner> daja77_: this is fault of the updater, because he should increment the extraversion.
[12:39] <blindcoder> note to self: don't listen to radio while coding
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[18:09] <netrunner> anyone here using gnucash for hbci?
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[19:17] <stf^rocklinux> re
[19:19] <blindcoder> moin stf^rocklinux 
[19:20] <stf^rocklinux> hello blindcoder
[19:20] <blindcoder> http://scavenger.homeip.net/~blindcoder/screen-color-save.png
[19:20] <blindcoder> result of a 10h hacksession :)
[19:21] <stf^rocklinux> looks interesting! what does it do?
[19:22] <blindcoder> I'm moving in a few weeks
[19:22] <blindcoder> and I want to have a model of my flat that i can 'walk' through
[19:22] <blindcoder> I still have to create furniture
[19:33] <stf^rocklinux> anybody ever wondered why the linux kernel doesn't include a comprehensive list of supported hardware?
[19:34] <blindcoder> hmm no
[19:34] <stf^rocklinux> I'm currently reading the LKML thread "Linux in a binary world... a doomsday scenario", and I certainly do...
[19:35] <stf^rocklinux> Now some people seriously suggested to introduce a "Works with Linux(tm)" certification o_O
[19:35] <blindcoder> that'd rock
[19:35] <stf^rocklinux> As if you could make educated buying decisions from a bunch of colorful stickers ... :S
[19:36] <stf^rocklinux> it didn't work for Windows and it certainly wouldn't work for Linux...
[19:36] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: how much hardware have _you_ brought back because you didn't get it running with linux acceptable/at all?
[19:37] <blindcoder> quite a few here
[19:37] <blindcoder> it would certainly work for the first few companies getting their stickers
[19:37] <blindcoder> because then people would look out for them
[19:38] <blindcoder> once they've become common noone will care anymore
[19:38] <blindcoder> both translate to being a good thing
[19:38] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: none yet... but consider this: "oh yes, it does work with Linux: just install RHEL x.y and our binary driver and everything should be fine"
[19:38] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: tell you what: I don't care if their driver is binary or not as long as it runs on _any_ distribution
[19:39] <stf^rocklinux> "oh, but we don't care to support later versions of linux, and if our binary driver conflicts with another one, you can throw away your computer..."
[19:39] <blindcoder> I have nvidia, ndiswrapper and ipw2100 running happily
[19:40] <blindcoder> well, then don't buy that piece of hardware
[19:40] <blindcoder> and make the company know why
[19:40] <stf^rocklinux> and 6 months from now, you won't be able to fix a security issue in the kernel without breaking all your binary drivers (which may or may not be updated)
[19:41] <blindcoder> blindcoder@fuzzy:~$ uname -r
[19:41] <blindcoder>
[19:41] <blindcoder> *cough*
[19:43] <stf^rocklinux> well, my point about the sticker is that vendors will lie about it, and it will always be certified too late (linux supports hardware but vendor fails to "put the sticker on the box")
[19:43] <stf^rocklinux> asking a vendor if their hardware works with your computer is like asking them if you should buy their hardware...
[19:43] <blindcoder> any word on the criteria for getting certified?
[19:43] <blindcoder> ie: binary blob == not certified
[19:44] <stf^rocklinux> You'll usually get answers ranging from "Yes, of course" to "I don't care what you do"...
[19:45] <blindcoder> well, last time I bought a piece of hardware (usb thingie) I took my laptop to the store and said: OK, guys. I want one of them. Can I check whether it works with my Linux? - Sure, go ahead. - *unpack* *plug* *test* *unplug* *repack* *get next item* (3 items later) *repack* *buy*
[19:45] <stf^rocklinux> So the list of supported hardware has to be maintained where it belongs, namely as part of the kernel sources. Kernel developers and users tend to be more objective on the usability of certain hardware on Linux, I think.
[19:46] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: that's why I asked about the criteria above
[19:46] <stf^rocklinux> no, there was no criteria defined yet (as of Dec, 2005, this thread is looong, haven't read all of it yet)
[19:47] <blindcoder> that'd be the interesting part
[19:47] <blindcoder> a sticker that noone knows what it means is useless
[19:48] <stf^rocklinux> The "Works with Linux" sticker would give another wrong impressiong, I guess. Non-technical users might think that hardware would have to be specifically designed to work on Linux.
[19:49] <stf^rocklinux> But that's nonsense, "Supported by Linux" would be much more up to the point.
[19:50] <stf^rocklinux> And if users asked why Linux doesn't support their hardware, they'd hear that's because their OEM doesn't support Linux developers in the first place...
[19:50] <blindcoder> what the sticker reads/looks like is beside the point
[19:50] <blindcoder> the _meaning_ is important
[19:51] <blindcoder> the 'designed for windows xp' sticker on mainboards for example means that the bios has a broken ACPI implementation (was that XP? I think it was)
[19:51] <stf^rocklinux> "Designed for Windows" is even worse: "look, we sprinkled some magic Windows dust on our hardware, and now it's "Windows-compatible"!" :S
[19:53] <stf^rocklinux> why would any OEM want to do that for their hardware and Linux?
[19:54] <blindcoder> *shrug* no idea?
[19:54] <blindcoder> why would they want to do it for Windows?
[19:54] <blindcoder> hardly any end-user cares about these stickers
[19:54] <stf^rocklinux> All users are interested in is: does this piece of hardware work with my computer?
[19:55] <blindcoder> they just go ahead and install 'mainboard-drivers', 'keyboard-drivers' and stuff
[19:55] <stf^rocklinux> so they should have a definite list, where they can look up which kernel versions support their hardware, and which features of it...
[20:03] <stf^rocklinux> my fear is that there are a multitude of ways to damage Linux with a "Linux" certification for hardware. I don't see such problems with a List of Supported Hardware.
[20:05] <stf^rocklinux> For example, who would do the Certification? Who would pay for it? Who would be responsible if a certification is used inappropriately? How long is a certification valid? Would the certifier be prone to certify binary-only drivers? And so on...
[20:05] <stf^rocklinux> To me it'd be a lot of unnecessary hurdles just to copy Windoze marketing strategies.
[20:06] <blindcoder> isn't that basically already done with the modules.pci maps?
[20:09] <stf^rocklinux> afaics that only covers if a certain hardware is recognized by the kernel at all. It doesn't say anything about usability or the set of usable features.
[20:10] <stf^rocklinux> E.g. look at the rivatv mailing list: most questions asked there are about: "does rivatv support my card?"
[20:12] <stf^rocklinux> or sometimes about "has this card ever worked on x86-64 Linux?" 
[20:12] <blindcoder> goes to proof that such projects suffer from stupid users (assuming the project has a website with supported cards listed)
[20:16] <stf^rocklinux> I don't think lack of documentation or user-friendlyness can be blamed on "stupid users".
[20:18] <blindcoder> well, if the rivatv project doesn't have a website with a listing of known-to-work and know-to-not-work cards, it's their fault for those mails
[20:19] <blindcoder> anyway
[20:19] <blindcoder> time for some relax time
[20:19] Action: blindcoder grabs a beer, a video and a couch
[20:19] <stf^rocklinux> rivatv does maintain a list of supported hardware and current status of support, but I think it inacceptable for users to have to sweep through the web to probably find out if all their hardware is supported...
[20:19] <stf^rocklinux> well, anyway :)
[20:20] Action: stf^rocklinux imagines blindcoder loaded with a beer, a video and a couch
[20:20] <stf^rocklinux> ^^
[20:23] <blindcoder> if user's can't bother to check uncle google for their card they probably shouldn't be using a computer in the first place
[20:23] Action: blindcoder is a strong supporter of the computer license (see also: drivers license)
[20:24] <blindcoder> anyway, bbl
[20:31] <stf^rocklinux>  if user's can't bother to check uncle google for their card they ... are probably right! "Stupid" users are no excuse for lack of documentation.
[20:32] <stf^rocklinux> After all the lack of centralized documentation affects advanced users and experts as well...
[20:33] <blindcoder> where's the centralized windows documentation of supported hardware?
[20:33] <stf^rocklinux> I don't care about windows ;)
[20:34] <stf^rocklinux> I still second your computer driving license, though :)
[20:35] <blindcoder> well, suse has (had?) its hardware db, rh probably too
[20:35] <blindcoder> which are clearly mentioned in the handboo
[20:35] <blindcoder> k
[20:36] <blindcoder> user doesn't care to educate himself? I don't care to interact with idiots (no offense meant)
[20:36] <stf^rocklinux> yes, and there's probably a dozen more sites, with lot's of missing, contradictory, outdated or simply wrong info...
[20:37] <stf^rocklinux> Even for users who care this is unnecessarily difficult. List of supported hardware should come as (online) docs to the Linux kernel, and in no other way imho.
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux> by raver31: (found on http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=14374&limit=no&threshold=-1) {
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux> Windows does not play dvd and divx out of the box. Windows cannot play quicktime or realplayer files out of the box. 
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  Windows cannot edit MS Word files out of the box. 
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  Windows cannot edit MS Excel files out of the box. 
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  Windows does not have full drivers for Nvidia or Ati out of the box. 
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  
[22:40] <stf^rocklinux>  So, by your logic, is Windows ready for the desktop ? 
[22:41] <stf^rocklinux>  Certainly not for mine.
[22:41] <stf^rocklinux> }
[22:41] <stf^rocklinux> g
[00:00] --- Sun Apr 30 2006