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[08:10] <blindcoder> moin
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[09:04] <blindcoder> th, fake, clifford: we need a release. and we need it soon.
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[10:42] <esden> moin
[10:43] <blindcoder> moin moin esden 
[10:53] <blindcoder> must be a thursday
[10:53] <blindcoder> I never got the knack of thursdays
[10:55] <blindcoder> esden: got a bogon sink I can carry around as a shield?
[11:02] <esden> blindcoder: no sorry ... otherwise I would attatch it to pallas. 
[11:02] <esden> blindcoder: localization is not working ... and I have no idea how to fix it
[11:02] <esden> and I need it badly
[11:03] <esden> because of an unknown reason php needs working localization on the machine to be able to use gettext in the php sites
[11:03] <esden> and I have to use it >_<
[11:03] <esden> *GRAAAA*
[11:09] <blindcoder> any meaningful error message?
[11:53] <esden> blindcoder: no error
[11:53] <esden> simply the function setlocale returns false in php
[11:53] <esden> and in the php documentation they say that when false is returned then the gettext functionality is not supported or so
[11:54] <esden> and I also could not switch the locale on the console of pallas by setting LANG
[11:54] <esden> that is really strange
[11:54] <esden> I would be really thankfull if you could also take a look in to that problem
[11:54] <esden> at least on the console
[11:55] <blindcoder> when I ate something
[11:55] <esden> or on an installed rocklinux at home
[11:55] <blindcoder> I'm currently about to commit murder
[11:55] <blindcoder> so I need a break _desperately_
[11:55] <esden> uiii ... why?
[11:55] <blindcoder> it's thursday
[11:55] <blindcoder> that's why
[11:55] <esden> blindcoder: sure do a break
[11:55] <blindcoder> bbl
[11:55] <esden> cu blindcoder 
[12:25] <fake> hi there
[12:25] <fake> blindcoder: i'm all for it.
[12:25] <blindcoder> re
[12:26] <blindcoder> fake: thanks, now we're at least three people
[12:26] <blindcoder> fake: you see, I'm really tired of having to tell people that ROCK isn't dead even though it looks like a dead horse
[12:27] <blindcoder> fake: but I'm not in a position to actually say: This is a release, this isn't
[12:27] <blindcoder> I can only push the stuff to the websites and magazines if there is something I can show the
[12:28] <th> for the release?
[12:28] <th> of course
[12:28] <th> i'm for it
[12:28] <fake> hi th :)
[12:28] <blindcoder> moin th
[12:28] <fake> *kachung* four
[12:28] <blindcoder> th, fake: so, what _is_ needed for a release?
[12:29] <blindcoder> a GUI installer?
[12:29] <blindcoder> unattended installation?
[12:29] <blindcoder> documentation?
[12:29] <blindcoder> $ULTIMATE_PACKAGE_THAT_WE_ABSOLUTELY_NEED_TO_HAVE?
[12:29] <fake> initramfs would be really helpful
[12:29] Action: esden is also for a release ;)
[12:30] <blindcoder> fake: then please help me convince th that he creates a package and infrastructure for it
[12:30] <fake> th: pretty please?
[12:31] <blindcoder> although we (c|sh)ould probably use the existing infrastructure from the mkinitrd
[12:31] <blindcoder> fake: but helpful != necessary
[12:31] <blindcoder> fake: I'm talking about stuff that prevents us from releasing ROCK 3.0
[12:32] <fake> there will be a version number? oh no...
[12:32] <fake> i thought we'll just release snapshots?
[12:32] <fake> like rocklinux-source-2006-05-19.tar.bz2 ?
[12:33] <th> putting my mkinitramfs into a rock package is on my todo.
[12:33] <th> and "on my todo" does not allow a precise date when it happens
[12:33] <th> that's the mess
[12:34] <blindcoder> well, do we really need initramfs?
[12:34] <blindcoder> I'm not saying that it's not a good idea
[12:34] <blindcoder> but we already have a solution for this problem
[12:34] <th> 12:29:41 < blindcoder> well, do we really need initramfs?
[12:34] <th> yes we do.
[12:34] <th> but do we need it for a realease
[12:34] <th> i dont know
[12:34] <th> but we need another installer
[12:35] <th> that's my opinion
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: sorry, I meant for the release
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: I agree that we need it sooner or later
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: and in this regard I prefer sooner
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[12:35] <blindcoder> th: okay, so we need another installer
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: what does it need to support?
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: or rather, how does it need to differ from the current one?
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: it should use /dev/disk instead of /dev/discs
[12:35] <blindcoder> th: that's for sure
[12:36] Action: blindcoder opens the wiki page Roadmap
[12:37] <blindcoder> next?
[12:38] <fake> th: the installer is fine for now.
[12:39] <th> hmmm
[12:39] <th> ok. i guess i just wont like the release then
[12:39] <fake> one thing that needs fixing is the 'hardware detection' dialog
[12:39] <blindcoder> th: it's currently not about liking or not liking
[12:39] <blindcoder> th: I don't like several stuff
[12:40] <blindcoder> th: but we really need a release in the vain hope that we might actually polish our image of a dead horse
[12:41] <stf^rocklinux> moin
[12:42] <blindcoder> moin stf^rocklinux 
[12:42] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: your opinion is also welcome
[12:42] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: what do you think do we _need_ absolutely _need_ in an upcoming release?
[12:42] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: I second your last statement (altough I haven't read the previous ones yet)
[12:43] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: that depends largely on when I want this release to upcome...
[12:44] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: and I want it to appear soon, so I'd want only one or two essential patches added 
[12:44] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: exactly
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[12:45] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: we do need it soon, so "cosmetic" changes or "I don't like this" should be left out for now
[12:45] <blindcoder> I would love to write a joystick module for stone
[12:45] <blindcoder> but that has to wait, too
[12:45] <fake> stf^rocklinux: the /var/adm/* fixes @checksums are already in trunk, right?
[12:46] <stf^rocklinux> so far I'm quite pleased with current trunk. But e.g. hal/dbus running by default would be really nice and safe us from a lot of puzzled users.
[12:46] <stf^rocklinux> fake: yes, that's solved in latest $topic release
[12:47] <stf^rocklinux> or, regarding hal/dbus, at least write a short documentation about common configuration steps after installation
[12:47] <blindcoder> hal and dbus does what exactly?
[12:48] <th> "magic"
[12:48] <blindcoder> heh
[12:48] <blindcoder> what kind of magic
[12:49] <fake> black magic
[12:49] <blindcoder> okay, what hapens after the magic?
[12:49] <fake> you die.
[12:50] <fake> ;-)
[12:50] <blindcoder> hehe
[12:50] <blindcoder> no, really what does hal and dbus do?
[12:50] Action: blindcoder casts "rocks fall, everybody dies"
[12:50] <fake> it makes driver and device handling more desktop-friendly
[12:51] <blindcoder> okay, I would consider this necessary
[12:51] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: dbus=simple interprocess-communication, hal=hardware abstraction layer, (hal uses dbus)
[12:51] <fake> if you plug in a usb stick with those 2 running and kde compiled with support for them, a popup will offer you to mount the stick, etc.
[12:51] <blindcoder> fake: ah, okay
[12:51] <blindcoder> absolutely necessary
[12:53] <stf^rocklinux> btw. I'd guess giving a new version number to the next release would draw more attention to it than a mere 2006-x-y...
[12:53] <daja77_> moin
[12:53] <stf^rocklinux> moin daja77 :)
[12:53] <blindcoder> moin daja77_ 
[12:54] <fake> stf^rocklinux: right, but it imposes some abi stability we don't guarantee
[12:54] <fake> api
[12:54] <fake> whatever
[12:54] <daja77_> hi fake
[12:54] <blindcoder> fake: why don't we just do "what everyone else does"? number them by YEAR.NUMBER
[12:54] <blindcoder> 2006.1, 2006.2 etc
[12:55] <fake> only genpoo does that
[12:55] <blindcoder> OTOH, we _did_ start with the major.minor version numbers
[12:55] <blindcoder> and should probably stick to them
[12:55] <blindcoder> just look at the mess that is Linux Kernel versioning
[12:56] <stf^rocklinux> I agree, btw. we didn't say anywhere that API compatibility can be deduced from version numbers
[12:56] <blindcoder> exactly
[12:56] <fake> stf^rocklinux: that's common sense, at least IMHO
[12:56] <blindcoder> the jump from 1.x to 2.x came from major changes in the scripts/
[12:57] <fake> ... which are api breaks, after all
[12:57] <blindcoder> yes
[12:57] <blindcoder> so where's the hurt in versioning the next release 3.0?
[12:58] <fake> we'd make sure to not change .conf/.desc file formate within 3.x
[12:58] <fake> *have to
[12:58] <blindcoder> so then we'd number it 4.x if we do
[12:58] <blindcoder> big hairy deal
[12:58] <fake> yes. there aren't enough numbers. i promise you we'll run out... and then?
[12:58] <fake> then it's over.
[12:58] <fake> we're all gonna die.
[12:59] <blindcoder> oh, the set of |R is _big_ :)
[12:59] <stf^rocklinux> it looks impossible for me that the ROCK version could ever reflect the API compatibility of all contained distros...
[12:59] <fake> okay, okay
[12:59] <blindcoder> fake: if we run out of numbers, we'll call them names :)
[13:00] <fake> stf^rocklinux: but i.e. calls in .conf files, like hooks, special variables like autogen=1, etc
[13:00] <daja77_> .oO (let's choose a stupid movie with lots of characters in it and name each release after one of them)
[13:00] <fake> Mystery Science Theatre 3000!
[13:00] <blindcoder> YAY!
[13:00] <blindcoder> fake: but there aren't many of them, are there?
[13:01] <blindcoder> daja77_: The Rock!
[13:01] <stf^rocklinux> ... not so impossible on a second thought... (since the p ackage versions used in each distro are the same)
[13:01] <fake> Mike, Dipsy, Tom, Crow, Dr. Forrester
[13:01] <blindcoder> fake: I still have to watch MST3k
[13:01] <fake> then there are Brex, and Exitter, and Dr. Mitchem and...
[13:01] <fake> Illona Christen
[13:01] <daja77_> hehe
[13:01] <daja77_> would be my favourite
[13:02] <fake> ROCK Linux 3.0 "Illona" ?
[13:02] <blindcoder> anyway
[13:02] <fake> Oh, and of course, there's Wep
[13:02] <blindcoder> so far I have "hal/dbus" integration as necessity for the next version
[13:02] <daja77_> yeah each release gets the name of a talk show
[13:02] <blindcoder> what about udevtrigger/udevsettle?
[13:03] <blindcoder> not yet in bootdisk
[13:04] <daja77_> i don't even know what it is
[13:04] <daja77_> :/
[13:04] <blindcoder> not not in initscript either
[13:05] <blindcoder> daja77_: the correct way to start udev
[13:05] <blindcoder> coldstart udev
[13:05] <daja77_> ah
[13:05] <daja77_> the correct[tm] way
[13:05] <daja77_> :)
[13:05] <blindcoder> okay, so now I have two things we need to do
[13:05] <blindcoder> daja77_: well, the way suggested by the udev devs
[13:06] <blindcoder> okay what else?
[13:06] <stf^rocklinux> udev hotplugging (see th's patch) is also important (no usb, .. module autoloading without it here)
[13:06] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: smid?
[13:06] <stf^rocklinux> 2006051109432731480
[13:06] <blindcoder> okay
[13:07] <th> blindcoder: can you compile a list?
[13:07] <daja77_> what about new stuff like cups and apache 2.2?
[13:07] <blindcoder> th: just what I'm doing now
[13:07] <blindcoder> th: in the wiki Roadmap page
[13:07] <stf^rocklinux> new cups requires kdelibs to be patched...
[13:07] <blindcoder> daja77_: nice to have, but not for a release that should be here "soon"
[13:07] <stf^rocklinux> I'd say cups has to wait
[13:07] <fake> wait with apache 2.2
[13:08] <blindcoder> daja77_: I'm totally talking showstoppers
[13:08] <blindcoder> daja77_: stuff that does not work but can be expected to "just work"
[13:08] <blindcoder> hmm
[13:08] <blindcoder> < Help > entries for all scripts/Config options
[13:08] <daja77_> your sentence doesn't make sense ..
[13:08] <fake> newer versions are no show stopper except for security fixes
[13:09] <daja77_> yeah hopefully the next ff release is really at the end of may and not tomorrow ..
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[13:09] <blindcoder> hehe
[13:09] <blindcoder> moin Pilot 
[13:12] <blindcoder> http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Roadmap
[13:13] <Pilot> blindcoder: yo
[13:15] <stf^rocklinux> php5 fix is also worthy including imo, see 2006051719251915091 and 2006051720521469070 (without it php5 won't build with Build-Target)
[13:15] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: ack
[13:15] <daja77_> /dev/disk instead of /dev/discs argl 
[13:16] <blindcoder> Pilot: you got any showstoppers you would like to see fixed in the next release of ROCK which will be here "real soon now"?
[13:16] <blindcoder> daja77_: hm?
[13:16] <daja77_> stf^rocklinux: why so, it did here after the latest update i made
[13:16] <Pilot> blindcoder: eeerrr...
[13:16] <Pilot> i haven't touched Rocklinux for ages
[13:16] <blindcoder> Pilot: we're collecting :)
[13:16] <daja77_> blindcoder: just hate stupid renaming which is almost the same
[13:16] <Pilot> may be, /etc/net ?
[13:17] <stf^rocklinux> daja77_: php5 tries to download install-pear-nozlib.phar during build 
[13:17] <Pilot> i had a plan to spend 2 months in Tokyo integrating /etc/net into more distributions... but the plan failed
[13:17] <blindcoder> daja77_: it's not
[13:17] <fake> daja77_: not instead, additionally
[13:18] <daja77_> ic
[13:18] <blindcoder> daja77_: /dev/disk has a static naming scheme, so devices will always be the same
[13:18] <daja77_> hm
[13:18] <blindcoder> daja77_: /dev/discs depends on the order of adding the devices
[13:18] <blindcoder> Pilot: I've seen /etc/net on shellscripts.org
[13:18] <blindcoder> Pilot: but I have not yet had a look at it :(
[13:18] Action: fake once looked into /etc/net
[13:18] <fake> it's integration is planned.
[13:19] <daja77_> stf^rocklinux: yeah i saw your problem, just never had them, hm
[13:19] <fake> but it's nonintegration is not a show stopper (triple-negation! yay!)
[13:19] <Pilot> double
[13:19] Action: daja77_ gives fake a chalk and a blackboard
[13:20] <blindcoder> hehe
[13:20] <blindcoder> http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Roadmap
[13:23] <fake> Pilot: stopping is a negation, too
[13:23] <fake> Pilot: of some kind, at least
[13:24] <fake> cool, someone put daft punk music videos on our fileserver
[13:24] <fake> n1c3
[13:24] <blindcoder> hehe
[13:25] <blindcoder> okay, I submitted a patch for the udevtrigger/udevsettle stuff
[13:25] <blindcoder> untested, of course ;)
[13:25] <stf^rocklinux> the fix to Update-Src seems to be another "low-hanging fruit" for the next release (2006051512303819678)
[13:26] <blindcoder> yes
[13:26] <fake> yes, and it fixes a bug in flyspray
[13:26] <fake> blindcoder: there are only like 20 bugs in flyspray, not 250 ;)
[13:26] <blindcoder> fake: when I'm fired up, I tend to overestimate :)
[13:27] <daja77_> it is easy to lit blindy
[13:27] Action: blindcoder : Handle with care! Inflammable/Flameable substance!
[13:28] <stf^rocklinux> I could write the missing Config help texts this evening
[13:28] <blindcoder> especially when I have hairspray applied
[13:28] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: that would be great!
[13:28] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: if you want to make your life a bit easier, you can just cat all .in and .hlp files together and apply a bit of shell magic to see missing help texts
[13:29] <blindcoder> at least that's how I did it last time :)
[13:29] <stf^rocklinux> will do :)
[13:30] Action: fake crackattack-addicted
[13:30] <daja77_> hehe only played it once
[13:30] <daja77_> i was dead too quickly
[13:32] <blindcoder> hehe
[13:32] <blindcoder> fake: you should play some slashem!
[13:32] <stf^rocklinux> do your printers work with latest trunk/release?
[13:32] <blindcoder> no printer
[13:34] <stf^rocklinux> afair mine worked out of the box with latest crystal
[13:35] <fake> yes, it does here
[13:35] <fake> cups rules 
[13:36] <daja77_> sort of
[13:40] <stf^rocklinux> btw. someone should check if the new sun-jdk15 package (with DLJ) is different from the old one (since it's homepage says so)
[13:40] <stf^rocklinux> or we simply don't add it to the next release
[13:42] <fake> i suggest we don't do that just yet.
[13:44] <stf^rocklinux> ok, so let's defer the new Java license to a latter release?
[13:45] <fake> yes.
[13:46] <fake> we need to implement license viewing to mine... in some way. something like 'preinstall' scripts
[13:46] <daja77_> O_o
[13:47] <stf^rocklinux> fake: I'm not quite sure about this, but to clarify it I think it takes more time...
[13:48] <fake> i'm not sure either
[13:49] <daja77_> .oO (have you read the license, if no please enter yes to complete the install)
[13:50] <fake> haha
[13:51] <fake> reminds of debian, where you once needed to enter "Yes, I know exactly what I'm doing!" on a dist-upgrade
[13:52] <stf^rocklinux> daja77_: I think the relevant part from the DLJ is 2. (d) you do not remove or modify any included license
[13:52] <stf^rocklinux>     agreement or impede or prevent it from displaying and requiring
[13:52] <stf^rocklinux>     acceptance;
[13:54] <stf^rocklinux> but I am not a lawyer, so I can't tell you exactly what implications this has ...
[13:54] <daja77_> well if you are using things you have accepted the license ..
[13:54] <fake> daja77_: that's questionable.
[13:54] <fake> daja77_: it depends on the law of the country you're in.
[13:54] <daja77_> this display and click thing has no meaning at least in .de
[13:55] <fake> daja77_: but you can't agree to a license by using without being informed beforehand, which means you have to be presented with the license upon first use
[13:56] <daja77_> in .de there are just AGBs anyway but we have a license information in each gem, we could just replace the commercial entry with a link to the license
[13:57] <daja77_> and print a big fat warning: please read the license before using this package
[13:58] <daja77_> on install
[13:58] <stf^rocklinux> bbl
[13:59] <stf^rocklinux> gotta go...
[14:00] <blindcoder> ah, finally done
[14:01] <blindcoder> as far as I am concerned, this thursday is over
[14:01] <daja77_> ?
[14:05] <blindcoder> daja77_: thursdays suck
[14:05] <blindcoder> daja77_: as a rule of thumb
[14:05] <blindcoder> daja77_: every thursday I encounter is a day I should have stayed in bed
[14:05] <blindcoder> today I had to talk to idiots, morons, stupid people and ties before 9 AM
[14:05] <blindcoder> and the day didn't really improve much until 5 minutes ago
[14:06] <daja77_> ic
[14:07] <daja77_> .oO (thursday - blindcoder's monday)
[14:07] <blindcoder> yeah
[14:07] <blindcoder> mondays I can handle
[14:08] <blindcoder> but I just don't get the knack of thursdays (to quote a certain book)
[14:08] <fake> every day just sucks
[14:08] <blindcoder> fake: oh no, not entirely
[14:08] <blindcoder> fake: mondays are a bit bad, but they lighten up as it gets 7 PM
[14:08] <blindcoder> tuesdays and wednesdays are great
[14:08] <blindcoder> then comes thursday...
[14:08] <blindcoder> and friday is jsut a blast
[14:09] <blindcoder> saturday and sunday are fine
[14:09] <blindcoder> lather, rinse, repeat
[14:10] <fake> th: mind if i apply some stuff?
[14:11] <th> fake: not at all
[14:12] <fake> th: non-core stuff with sleeping developers, thinkning of 2006050416395528797, 2006050419065418886, 2006050817570025240 and 2006051322550613911
[14:14] <blindcoder> fake: 2006050817570025240 should be fine, I just don't have a mobile phone to test with anymore
[14:14] <blindcoder> lacking a datacable
[14:16] <th> fake: i'm for committing non-core patches of dead-devs after a short grace period
[14:16] <fake> th: why? so it seems like we actually care?
[14:16] <blindcoder> hehe
[14:17] <fake> *g*
[14:17] <th> fake: yes
[14:17] <fake> besides, the newest one is from 13th, that's 5 days of grace
[14:19] <th> which is enough
[14:19] <fake> so leaving it liggering 5 days is enough? what's not enough?
[14:19] <th> 2 days
[14:19] <th> and 3 days
[14:20] <th> and 4 days
[14:20] <th> i dont know
[14:20] <th> about a week sounds fair to me
[14:20] <th> fair enough
[14:20] <fake> i thought so ;)
[14:20] <daja77_> <- sleeping developer
[14:20] Action: daja77_ crashing head on the table
[14:20] <fake> the missing pro-voters are sleeping
[14:21] <blindcoder> yesyes
[14:21] <blindcoder> I just picked up the joystick package and fixed it, so the scmxx package had to wait :)
[14:21] <blindcoder> btw, there's a new libSDL
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[14:51] Nick change: ija_ -> ija
[15:07] <blindcoder> note to self: init 5 does not shut a linux machine down
[15:07] <blindcoder> anyway, I'm off for now
[15:07] <blindcoder> bbl
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[21:53] <stf^rocklinux> I've added most missing Config help texts now, see https://www.rocklinux.net/submaster/?mode=patch&uid=2006051821464159100
[22:34] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: great!
[22:35] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: wb
[22:36] <stf^rocklinux> btw I think we should defer the new DLJ license because of unsolved issues regarding its application
[22:37] <blindcoder> the "display of the license" thingie?
[22:37] <stf^rocklinux> yes, also the new sun-jdk15 package needs more testing (because it's supposed to be different to the old one)
[22:55] <blindcoder> well, we have a working java package for now, even though it's inconvenient
[22:56] <blindcoder> anyway, thanks for the help texts
[22:56] <blindcoder> and I'm off to bed now
[22:56] <blindcoder> see you lot tomorrow
[23:01] <stf^rocklinux> gn8
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[00:00] --- Fri May 19 2006