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[08:13] <blindcoder> moin
[08:43] Lucifer_arma (n=dave@user-0vvdcf9.cable.mindspring.com) joined #rocklinux.
[08:43] <Lucifer_arma> hello.... anybody here?  :)
[08:43] <Lucifer_arma> so, I'm working on a computer to put in my car, and obviously I need a linux distribution to put on it.  Catch is, I need a highly customized linux distribution.
[08:44] <Lucifer_arma> in fact, I need a linux distribution stripped down to the bone, can boot in 10 seconds on a slower-than-dirt system, and can be easily extended.
[08:44] <Lucifer_arma> no monitor, no feedback at all at first.  Just a keyboard and the radio.
[08:45] <Lucifer_arma> so, I'm not sure what my question is.  :)  I figure I can take it for granted rock linux does this, ummm...  is there a distribution of ROCK linux I can build that is stripped to the bone?
[08:45] <Lucifer_arma> is it possible to take out the sysV init and put my own in there?  Or what?
[08:46] <Lucifer_arma> I'm fishing for fairly quick, not necessarily detailed answers, I suppose.  I can RTFM, and I've been reading through the wiki, but some pointers would be really nice.  :)
[08:55] <blindcoder> it is possible to do with ROCK
[08:55] <blindcoder> you can replace sysV with a custom init version
[08:56] <blindcoder> have a look at package/base/sysvinit to learn how to create your own "init package"
[08:56] <blindcoder> basically, it needs a parse-config file that defines a "install_init" function
[08:59] <Lucifer_arma> hi, thanks.  :)
[09:00] <Lucifer_arma> So, I'm looking at the list of distributions ROCK can build now.  Is there a page I could look at that gives some sort of description of what each distribution has in it?
[09:00] <blindcoder> currently there's not much information about them
[09:00] <Lucifer_arma> http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Building  <--- the page I'm looking at
[09:00] <blindcoder> one is crystal, the generic desktop system
[09:00] <blindcoder> then the livecd, basically a crystal on a cd
[09:01] <blindcoder> and then there's lvp
[09:01] <blindcoder> http://lvp.crash-override.net/
[09:01] <blindcoder> the rest is rather unmaintained
[09:01] <Lucifer_arma> basically what I need now is linux on a hard drive with sound and keyboard.  I've started writing the front-end ui in python, so obviously I need python
[09:02] <Lucifer_arma> basically I need a kernel, mpg321, ogg123, moosic (python music daemon), and python, and the rest I can live without
[09:02] <blindcoder> from what I read about what you want to do, lvp should be a good start
[09:03] <Lucifer_arma> can it install to a hard drive?
[09:03] <blindcoder> you can run it from a hard drive if you install a boot loader
[09:03] <blindcoder> it is designed to run from CD, though
[09:04] <Lucifer_arma> heh.  I'm not new to linux, but I'm new to this sort of low-level linux.
[09:05] <Lucifer_arma> can't run from a CD because it's got a desktop CD ROM, which of course won't work when I go over speed bumps
[09:05] <blindcoder> you might consider running from an usb stick or flash card
[09:05] <Lucifer_arma> what's this generic ROCK thing?  I would assume without further information that it's kind of like a core distribution
[09:06] <Lucifer_arma> well, there's quite a few catches.  One is that my wife won't let me have the money that doing this Right would take, so I'm using spare parts, which limits my options significantly
[09:06] <blindcoder> generic is "everything and all inclusive"
[09:06] <blindcoder> crystal is "one problem, one solution"
[09:06] <blindcoder> generic has 17 WM, 20 shells, 4 display managers, seven databases and so on
[09:06] <blindcoder> crystal has KDE, bash, kdm, postgresql
[09:07] <Lucifer_arma> after I get far enough along and the thing proves itself useful, we've got plenty of money to throw into making a better car computer.
[09:07] <Lucifer_arma> ok, that's obviously more than I need/want on this thing.  :)
[09:07] <blindcoder> indeed :)
[09:07] <blindcoder> that's why I say you might want to look into LVP
[09:07] <blindcoder> basically, LVP loads itself into RAM
[09:08] <blindcoder> then you can run over speed bumps, too :)
[09:09] <Lucifer_arma> :)
[09:09] <Lucifer_arma> I found the page on package selection.  :)
[09:10] <blindcoder> package selection is really nice
[09:10] <blindcoder> X package
[09:10] <blindcoder> to enable
[09:10] <blindcoder> O package
[09:10] <blindcoder> to disable
[09:10] <Lucifer_arma> How easy is it to get new patches accepted?  Like, say I put together my car linux distribution with ROCK and want to give the stuff back...
[09:10] <blindcoder> quite easy
[09:10] <blindcoder> submit it to submaster
[09:10] <blindcoder> https://www.rocklinux.net/submaster/
[09:10] <blindcoder> then it will undergo a bit of review
[09:11] <blindcoder> and then it'll be applied
[09:11] <blindcoder> though you are welcome to nag a bit after seven days :)
[09:11] <blindcoder> basically, there's no thing like in debian, where you need to undergo a test or something
[09:11] <Lucifer_arma> :)
[09:12] <blindcoder> everyone capable of submitting patches is welcome to do so
[09:12] <blindcoder> okay, gotta get to work now
[09:12] <Lucifer_arma> that's cool.
[09:12] <blindcoder> see you later
[09:12] <Lucifer_arma> have fun, and thanks for your help
[09:12] <blindcoder> you're welcome
[09:18] <Lucifer_arma> http://www.rocklinux.net/svn.html   <--- I'm looking at this page
[09:19] <Lucifer_arma> Do I just need rock-linux to build a distribution?  Or do I need more?
[09:21] <th> only this one
[09:21] <th> well and an internet connection of course
[09:23] <Lucifer_arma> I guess I should go get an internet connection :)
[09:24] <Lucifer_arma> thanks.  checking out now
[09:25] <Lucifer_arma> does rock have an armagetron package?
[09:33] <th> i doubt it. but it's trivial to add a package if it's built with standard configure&&make&&make install
[09:40] <blindcoder> even easier if it's on freshmeat :)
[09:41] <blindcoder> moin th
[09:50] <Lucifer_arma> automake and friends
[09:54] <blindcoder> yeah
[09:54] <blindcoder> configure && make && make install
[09:54] <blindcoder> make && make install
[09:54] <blindcoder> Makefile.PL
[09:55] <blindcoder> setup.py
[09:55] <blindcoder> those are the ones that are automatically detected
[09:55] <Lucifer_arma> bootstrap.sh ?  :)
[09:55] <blindcoder> don't think so
[09:55] <Lucifer_arma> so a source distribution--fine, but a cvs checkout (which requires bootstrapping)--not fine
[09:56] <blindcoder> huh?
[09:56] <blindcoder> I don't understand that
[09:56] <Lucifer_arma> ummm.  Have you worked with automake, autoheader, and autoconf?
[09:56] <blindcoder> yes
[09:56] <Lucifer_arma> seems like there's another one.  aclocal?
[09:57] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so in cvs we only store configure.ac, and the various Makefile.am needed, and we have a shell script that runs the tools that generate configure and the Makefile.in
[09:57] <blindcoder> yes
[09:57] <blindcoder> okay
[09:57] <blindcoder> there's a mechanism for that, too
[09:57] <Lucifer_arma> but the source distribution contains configure and all the Makefile.in
[09:58] <blindcoder> autogen ....... set to '1' if you want to run the autogen script
[09:58] <Lucifer_arma> I'll look into it in a bit.  Lemme figure out how this thing works first.  :)  I've wanted to build several distributions of armagetron for awhile
[09:58] <Lucifer_arma> thought it'd be neat if we could have an iso image people could run and have it install the dedicated server and various other useful support programs
[09:59] <Lucifer_arma> some folks have asked for a liveCD.  Stuff like that, you know?  :)
[09:59] <blindcoder> yes, I understand
[10:00] <Lucifer_arma> I must admit, I'm getting pretty excited.  :)  I expected to find some unmaintained linux distribution I could adopt and beat into what I was wanting,
[10:00] <Lucifer_arma> and decide partway through it that it wasn't worth it and just use Debian.
[10:00] <blindcoder> I have never tried derivating debian
[10:01] <blindcoder> o-O
[10:01] <Lucifer_arma> I fooled with Mandriva awhile back, trying to make the armagetron dedicated server distro, but got lost quickly
[10:01] <blindcoder> just got an interesting e-mail
[10:01] <blindcoder> brb
[10:06] <blindcoder> back
[10:14] <blindcoder> Lucifer_arma: you mean this one: http://freshmeat.net/projects/armagetronad/ ?
[10:14] <Lucifer_arma> yeah :)
[10:15] Action: Lucifer_arma wonders how long it's been since the freshmeat listing has been updated
[10:15] <Lucifer_arma> 2 days ago, not bad
[10:18] <blindcoder> it uses opengl acceleration, doesn't it?
[10:18] <Lucifer_arma> yes, it does.  SDL for input, openGL for the rest.
[10:18] <Lucifer_arma> the server doesn't, of course.  The server's pretty light
[10:18] <blindcoder> ah, okay
[10:18] <blindcoder> I just thought about the korora livecd debacle
[10:19] <Lucifer_arma> libxml2 for stuff
[10:19] <Lucifer_arma> korora livecd?
[10:19] <blindcoder> Xgl livecd, coming with binary versions of the nvidia and ati kernel modules
[10:19] <Lucifer_arma> ran into legal problems?
[10:19] <blindcoder> they seem to have gotten into a real mess with GPL vs. non-GPL kernel code
[10:19] <blindcoder> yeah
[10:20] <blindcoder> but if it's just the server, you might just need a little interface to it
[10:20] <Lucifer_arma> right.  That's a problem we'd have to skirt ourselves.  Clearly we wouldn't be able to include the non-GPL-compatible drivers for a client livecd
[10:20] <Lucifer_arma> server runs like any other daemon, doesn't even use SDL.  In fact, I think libxml2 is the only dependency for the server outside of system libraries
[10:20] <blindcoder> nice
[10:20] <blindcoder> does it run only by command line arguments?
[10:21] <Lucifer_arma> ummm.  yes?  :)
[10:21] <blindcoder> or does it have a little UI?
[10:21] <Lucifer_arma> init.d scripts
[10:21] <Lucifer_arma> it has a console, and when run from the commandline you see it
[10:21] <blindcoder> ah, okay
[10:21] <Lucifer_arma> when run as a daemon, it doesn't poll stdin and its output gets redirected to a log file, and the init scripts handle that
[10:21] <blindcoder> you could do it like I do in LVP and just run it on vc/0 from agetty instead of a login program
[10:22] <Lucifer_arma> that's a possibility.  We'd have to beat it around, though.  When we've talked about it before there's always been a submerged kind of "Oh yeah, and it'd be a good place to start a general purpose server"
[10:23] <Lucifer_arma> we'll have to beat it around.  I posted in the forums, so hopefully some other developers will take a look and we can have real discourse :)
[10:23] <blindcoder> hehe
[10:23] <blindcoder> okay, we have a 'everybody-listen-and-nod-to-the-boss' meeting now
[10:23] <blindcoder> bbl
[10:23] <Lucifer_arma> we have lots of windows players that want to run servers, but Windows is a crappy OS for any server, even ours.  But they don't want to try a linux server
[10:23] <Lucifer_arma> right, have fun
[10:24] <blindcoder> if you need help, nag people here and on the mailing lists. I'll try to help as much as I can, though my online time is fragmented currently
[10:24] <blindcoder> anyway, bbl
[10:25] <Lucifer_arma> ok, thanks
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[11:19] <Lucifer_arma> hmm, so how do I give a custom package list to a target?
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[12:09] <blindcoder> Lucifer_arma: see the target/*/config.in files for examples
[12:09] <blindcoder> the pkgfilter function is the key here
[12:10] <Lucifer_arma> aha, I think I'm figurig it out.  I was confused because I did Download -all and saw a bunch of kde apps
[12:11] <Lucifer_arma> then I started over, doing -required this time and got exactly what I listed
[12:12] <Lucifer_arma> so why does it want me to be root to build the distribution?
[12:13] <blindcoder> because it does a chroot
[12:13] <blindcoder> which you must be root for
[12:13] <Lucifer_arma> ahh, right.
[12:13] <blindcoder> also, it does a bit of mount --bind
[12:14] <Lucifer_arma> so whn you install a rock linux distribution, what kind of ui do you get?  Pretty graphical installer?  curses?
[12:16] <blindcoder> curses
[12:16] <blindcoder> dialog based, actually
[12:17] <blindcoder> it is also quite easy to do an installation by hand
[12:17] <Lucifer_arma> like the Config script?  is there any interest in a graphical installer?
[12:17] <Lucifer_arma> useful for branding...
[12:17] <blindcoder> yes, like that
[12:17] <Lucifer_arma> (not the best argument, I know)
[12:17] <blindcoder> interest is there, but not before the next release
[12:17] <blindcoder> we want to create a new installer, but we think it's better to have a release some time soon
[12:18] <Lucifer_arma> == 05/23/06 05:13:26 =[0]=> Aborted building package binutils.
[12:18] <blindcoder> 0-binutils failing is strange
[12:19] <blindcoder> have a look at build/*/var/adm/logs/0-binutils.err
[12:19] <blindcoder> that's the build log
[12:20] <Lucifer_arma> ar.c:(.text+0x23): undefined reference to `yyparse'
[12:20] <Lucifer_arma> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[12:20] <Lucifer_arma> I'm building in Kubuntu
[12:20] <blindcoder> you're missing yacc (bison package) on your host system
[12:21] <Lucifer_arma> so can I just ctrl-c and start again and have it try again?
[12:21] <Lucifer_arma> (installing bison right now)
[12:21] <blindcoder> yes
[12:22] <blindcoder> if you checked [X] retry building broken packages
[12:22] <blindcoder> otherwise you need to manually delete the .err file
[12:23] <Lucifer_arma> I don't see a .err file, I got that from ERROR-LOG
[12:23] <blindcoder> rule of thumb: deleting the logfile will make the package build again
[12:23] <blindcoder> go to build/*/var/adm/logs
[12:23] <blindcoder> there it will be
[12:24] <blindcoder> ERROR-LOG and .err file have the same content
[12:24] <Lucifer_arma> found it
[12:25] <Lucifer_arma> seems like it will be useful to have a second terminal open in the logs directory :)
[12:25] <blindcoder> I recommend screen
[12:25] <Lucifer_arma> I've had several people recommend screen to me recently
[12:25] <blindcoder> hehe
[12:28] <Lucifer_arma> more undefined references in binutils
[12:28] <Lucifer_arma> yyerror, yyparse, yylex
[12:30] <Lucifer_arma> flex?
[12:31] <blindcoder> bison, yacc, flex
[12:32] <blindcoder> don't forget the :dev packages, if any
[12:33] <Lucifer_arma> none appeared in the lsit
[12:33] <Lucifer_arma> *list
[12:35] <Lucifer_arma> it would be nice if there was a log file I could tail in another terminal to watch the build process
[12:36] <Lucifer_arma> I saw the flag that would let me watch it, but I didn't want to have compiler stuff mixed in with the distribution stuff
[12:36] <Lucifer_arma> this time it succeeded :)
[12:36] <blindcoder> build/*/ROCK/logs/
[12:37] <blindcoder> or build/*/ROCK/log/
[12:37] <Lucifer_arma> yeah, but I'd have to shift it every time.
[12:37] <blindcoder> don't remember by heart
[12:37] <Lucifer_arma> er, wait a minute
[12:37] <blindcoder> wait, I'm not sure I understand what you want right now
[12:37] <Lucifer_arma> ahhh, nvm, I misread your path
[12:38] <blindcoder> :)
[12:38] <blindcoder> anyway, my lunchbreak is over
[12:38] <blindcoder> gotta get back to work now
[12:38] <blindcoder> bbl
[12:38] <Lucifer_arma> hmmm.  No, that's not quite it.  I was wanting to see the output of make for each package
[12:38] <Lucifer_arma> ok, later
[12:46] <esden> moin
[12:57] <Lucifer_arma> checking for C compiler default output... configure: error: C compiler cannot create executables
[12:57] <Lucifer_arma> in 1-bash2.err
[13:00] <Lucifer_arma> checking installed Linux kernel header files... TOO OLD!  <--- glibc failed
[13:00] <esden> erm ... Lucifer_arma sorry to interfere ... but if you ask me ... then a linux for an embedded system that you want to build (small, slow, and has to boot fast) then I would take a look at uClinux (uClinux was developed for systems without mmu but works great on systems that have an mmu ... is small is fast and used on many embedded systems) ...
[13:01] <Lucifer_arma> hmmm...  I tried to look at it but the link was old
[13:01] <esden> even if I think rock is a great thing and that I would be greatly thankfull when you customize (create a distribution) for an embedded system using it ... but still I think that is a lot of work
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[13:02] <Lucifer_arma> lot of work isn't a problem.  :)
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[13:02] <Lucifer_arma> looks like uCLinux is intended for systems that are well outside what I'm building
[13:02] <Lucifer_arma> it's not exactly embedded, it's just a celeron system I've got laying around.  It's a full-fledged pc...
[13:02] Nick change: blindcod1r -> blindcoder
[13:03] <Lucifer_arma> http://www.mp3car.com/  <--- something like this, but on the cheap
[13:03] <esden> aha ... ok
[13:03] <esden> I use uClinux for my embedded development for now
[13:03] <Lucifer_arma> also, the mp3car computers don't have linux support, they ship with windows.  Maybe linux will run on them, but what distribution do you use?
[13:04] <daja77> esden: the handheld?
[13:04] <Lucifer_arma> but will uCLinux run on my sony clie?  :)
[13:04] <esden> daja77: ack ... but I would like to get rock subdist running ot it some day ... 
[13:04] <esden> daja77: but for now I need the hardware and uClinux is enough to test if it works ;)
[13:05] <Lucifer_arma> so, it failed in 1-glibc.  Is that after the chroot?  Says the kernel headers are too old...
[13:05] <esden> Lucifer_arma: on what host system do you try to build rock?
[13:05] <Lucifer_arma> Kubuntu
[13:05] <Lucifer_arma>  /usr/include/linux/version.h is there, and it's a 2.6 kernel
[13:06] <esden> ok ... I have not used it ... but I know that on debian unstable it is possible to build rock without any hickups
[13:06] <Lucifer_arma> ubuntu's pretty far removed from debian these days
[13:07] <esden> I see
[13:07] <daja77> perhaps you need kernel-headers
[13:07] <Lucifer_arma> the header is there....
[13:07] Action: Lucifer_arma opens package manager
[13:11] <Lucifer_arma> there is a linux-headers package that's not installed
[13:11] <daja77> try it :)
[13:11] Action: Lucifer_arma is installing it right now
[13:13] <Lucifer_arma> same error
[13:14] <Lucifer_arma> it's in 1-glibc, 0-glibc already built
[13:14] <daja77> have you had built errors before 1-glibc?
[13:15] <Lucifer_arma> yes, but fixed them.  Ummm, it was....
[13:15] Action: Lucifer_arma thinks
[13:15] <Lucifer_arma> needed bison and flex for, um, binutils, that's it
[13:15] <Lucifer_arma> for 0-binutils
[13:19] <daja77> well i think removing everything and restarting the build would provide a sane environment and for 1-glibc not  too much time is lost
[13:19] <Lucifer_arma> would that be ./scripts/Cleanup ?
[13:19] <daja77> yep with -full as parameter
[13:20] <Lucifer_arma> ok, started again
[13:21] <Lucifer_arma> if I threw Crystal on here as my host system, would it build?  I've got a spare partition...
[13:21] <Lucifer_arma> (not that installing linux on this laptop has ever been *easy*, just not terribly painful)
[13:22] <daja77> crystal is a pretty well tested environment for builds, but i guess everything will work this time
[13:24] <Lucifer_arma> when it's in, I guess it's stage 1, is it chrooted already?
[13:24] <Lucifer_arma> or is it just building the toolchain again before chrooting?
[13:24] Action: Lucifer_arma is assuming that after chrooting the host system shouldn't have any real influence anymore
[13:35] <blindcoder> stage 2 is chroot
[13:36] <blindcoder> and you're right, at that point the host system doesn't have _much_ influence anymore
[13:36] <blindcoder> just later on you might run into problems if you have a very strange setup
[13:36] <blindcoder> like a kernel without /dev/loop support or missing mkisofs
[13:39] <Lucifer_arma> same problem with 1-glibc
[13:41] <blindcoder> Lucifer_arma: have you enable the linuc-libc-header package?
[13:41] <blindcoder> or however it's called...
[13:41] <Lucifer_arma> hmmm.....  don't know
[13:41] <daja77> are you crossbuilding?
[13:41] <Lucifer_arma> um, no?
[13:42] <Lucifer_arma> x86 to x86
[13:42] <blindcoder> I've never seen that message. could you upload the .err file and the config.log file somewhere?
[13:42] <daja77> blindcoder: i saw it, while crossbuilding for hppa :)
[13:42] <Lucifer_arma> I can...  I did not have the linux-libc-header package enabled
[13:43] <blindcoder> Lucifer_arma: please enable it and try again, I don't think you need to Cleanup -full though
[13:43] <Lucifer_arma> heh, did the cleanup already
[13:43] <blindcoder> okay :)
[14:08] <Lucifer_arma> well, it got through configuring 1-glibc :)
[14:13] <stf^rocklinux> sounds good. Just remember to kick your PC from time to time so that it doesn't stop working ;)
[14:25] <Lucifer_arma> heh
[14:27] <Lucifer_arma> alright, yay.  it's on 1-binutils, I think I can go to bed and let it work on its own now
[14:27] <Lucifer_arma> or rather, I think after binutils is done I can...
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[15:04] Action: Lucifer_arma is away: sleeping
[15:04] <daja77> -.-
[15:05] <Lucifer_arma> the thing's in stage 2 now, and it's building binutils again, I think it'll finish on its own without further nursing
[16:39] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: ping
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[16:58] <stf^rocklinux> X11R7.1 released: http://lwn.net/Articles/184698/
[16:59] <daja77> read about that ...
[16:59] <stf^rocklinux> "modularized and autotooled" sounds nice :)
[17:02] <stf^rocklinux> but I think it has to wait until our next release is out...
[17:28] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: pong
[17:32] <stf^rocklinux> hi blindcoder :)
[17:32] <stf^rocklinux> is it ok if I remove Java with the DLJ from the list of 'things to include in the next release'?
[17:33] <stf^rocklinux> Java with the DLJ needs some extra work I don't have time for in the next days ...
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[17:35] <blindcoder> was it on the list to begin with?
[17:35] <stf^rocklinux> on the Roadmap 
[17:36] <stf^rocklinux> it is
[17:38] <stf^rocklinux> http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Roadmap
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[17:38] <blindcoder> oh, I see
[17:39] <blindcoder> well, if it causes more work than thought, remove it at your discretion
[17:39] <blindcoder> I'm going to celebrate feierabend now
[17:39] <blindcoder> bbl
[17:39] <stf^rocklinux> cu
[17:39] <stf^rocklinux> I'll (re)move it for now
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[18:55] <blindcoder> re
[19:01] <stf^rocklinux> wb
[19:08] <blindcoder> tnx
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[21:56] <th> anyone had a look at xorg-7.2 yet?
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[22:13] <stf^rocklinux> hi th!
[22:13] <th> yea hi
[22:13] <stf^rocklinux> you mean xorg-7.1?
[22:13] <th> 7.2 i thought
[22:14] <stf^rocklinux> don't think so... I've read today's anouncement of 7.1
[22:14] <th> ok so i'm confused
[22:14] <stf^rocklinux> I mean I don't think anyone took a look at it yet
[22:15] <icelbox> nvidia binary only drivers do not support the glx code yet, so I had no reason to look closer at it :)
[22:16] <th> ahh yes. right.
[22:16] <th> ok. true.
[22:16] <th> ignore my question
[22:17] <stf^rocklinux> th: how should we tag trunk for a release?
[22:18] <th> i think its clear that we wont do a branch
[22:18] <th> so we need a tag only. and for a tag it would be enough to announce the revision somehow
[22:18] <stf^rocklinux> I think it'd be helpful to tag release candidates before an actual release
[22:18] <th> wont hurt to do a svn cp from trunk to /tags
[22:18] <th> tagging rc before release is like doing a branch ;)
[22:19] <stf^rocklinux> not if we freeze trunk until the release :D
[22:19] <th> of course not ;)
[22:19] <th> but then we dont need to tag them
[22:19] <th> ;>
[22:23] <stf^rocklinux> ^^
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[00:00] --- Wed May 24 2006