[00:35] Action: Lucifer_arma is back.
[00:37] <stf^rocklinux> wb Lucifer
[00:37] <Lucifer_arma> ty, re
[00:58] <Lucifer_arma> yay.  it's installing in qemu.  :)
[01:03] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so if I made a custom package list in misc/pkgsel, how do I get rock to use my custom list?
[01:03] <Lucifer_arma> http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Changing_the_package_selection  <-- tells me how to make the list, but not how to use it
[01:36] <stf^rocklinux> usually with scrips/Build-Target, it simply builds all packages enabled for a given configuration
[01:38] <stf^rocklinux> package specific options in scripts/Config are also only available if the package is enabled
[01:41] <stf^rocklinux> err, misread misc/pkgsel with config/<config>/pkgsel
[01:42] <Lucifer_arma> I found the option in advanced settings in Config, any way I can set that option in the Config commandline?
[01:44] <stf^rocklinux> when you create a file like misc/pkgsel/bbs.in you can select it with 'Additional Package selection' in Config (Expert options)
[01:44] <Lucifer_arma> I found that.  :)  Is there a way to set that from the commandline?
[01:46] <stf^rocklinux> not really. you could modify the config/<config>/config and config_usr files
[01:47] <stf^rocklinux> those are simple text files, with variable=value lines
[01:48] <Lucifer_arma> not a big deal, really.  It would just be convenient for automated builds, but after you've run Config once, you're configured, right?  Automate away...
[01:48] <stf^rocklinux> yes
[01:49] <Lucifer_arma> so I'm installing in Qemu and am noticing the installer is a bit rough around the edges.  :)  HOw is it written?
[01:49] <Lucifer_arma> I mean,
[01:49] <Lucifer_arma> it seems like you'd want each installation task to be a separate app that gives output to stdout to indicate how far along it is.
[01:49] <Lucifer_arma> Then you could write, say, a python app that uses os.system() to execute these tasks
[01:50] <stf^rocklinux> the installer is currently a stone plugin
[01:51] <stf^rocklinux> and stone (the ROCK setup tool) is written in bash
[01:52] <stf^rocklinux> so the bootdisk in stage 2 basically starts stone which does the rest
[01:53] <stf^rocklinux> where stage 2 refers to the 2nd stage ramdisk used for booting
[01:53] <Lucifer_arma> I think I saw a script with a name that basically said "I'm running in stage 2"
[01:56] <stf^rocklinux> target/bootdisk/linuxrc2.sh is the 2nd stage boot script that starts stone
[01:58] <stf^rocklinux> and stone is part of the sysfiles package, see e.g. the package/base/sysfiles/stone*.sh files
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[02:05] <stf^rocklinux> I don't know python, but you mean a progress bar, I suppose? Some have already suggested rewriting the installer (because of said rough edges)
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[02:28] <stf^rocklinux> package/sysfiles/stone_mod_runlevel.sh e.g. is a simple stone plugin; as all plugins it can use dialog elements defined in package/sysfiles/stone_gui_*.sh
[02:29] <stf^rocklinux> like yes/no dialog boxes, etc.
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[04:32] <Lucifer_arma> ok, so I'm building a custom package list, and I've included basic.set and common.set.  How do I disable packages that are enabled in those two?
[04:33] <Lucifer_arma> so, I'd like to trim packages I don't need/want
[06:01] <Lucifer_arma> on customizing packages:  I want to preconfigure apache with a certain web application.  Do I need a custom target for that?  I want to use the stock apache package to do it, if possible.
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[08:50] <Lucifer_arma> so, what's the difference now between T2 and ROCK?
[08:53] <blindcoder> good question
[08:54] <blindcoder> I haven't had a look at T2 since its maintainer has a very explosive temper
[08:55] <Lucifer_arma> I saw a comment to that effect on the rock mailing list archives, but I'm looking at their website and the project looks very active.
[08:55] <Lucifer_arma> not trying to dig up old wounds or anything, I just like to know what I'm getting myself into.  :)
[08:56] <Lucifer_arma> my main beef so far with rock is the extensive shell scripting and the people-named package tree.  The shell scripting is actually a good thing, though, if y'all were inclined to rewrite it
[08:56] <blindcoder> really, I can't tell you because I don't know
[08:57] <Lucifer_arma> and the chosen language were something I actually liked a lot (such as python)
[08:57] <Lucifer_arma> but there's always the concern about how fresh the packages themselves are.  How fresh are they, in general?
[08:58] <blindcoder> the packages in package/base are as fresh as they can possibly be
[08:58] <blindcoder> unless you like to use cvs checkouts :)
[08:58] <Lucifer_arma> :)  some projects....yes.... heh
[08:59] <blindcoder> other packages depend heavily on who uses them
[08:59] <blindcoder> if noone of the ROCK people uses them, they may be quite old
[08:59] <blindcoder> in which case you are very welcome to take over maintainership of them :)
[09:01] <Lucifer_arma> well, not sure that I'm jumping onto that.  :)  I didn't see the kde packages in there.  How easy is it, in general to update a package?
[09:01] <Lucifer_arma> so if the package that's there is quite old, but the program's build system hasn't changed significantly, is it just a matter of changing version and download links?
[09:02] <Lucifer_arma> and how realistic is that a possibility?
[09:02] <blindcoder> that's how it usually works
[09:02] <blindcoder> basically, to update a package you do:
[09:02] <blindcoder> ./scripts/Create-PkgUpdPatch wesnoth-1.1.4 | patch -p0
[09:03] <blindcoder> and with that the package wesnoth is updated to version 1.1.4
[09:03] <blindcoder> even the linux kernel can be updated that way
[09:05] <Lucifer_arma> so what's the general level of activity around here?
[09:06] <blindcoder> currently a bit low because the lead maintainer doesn't have an internet connection
[09:07] <Lucifer_arma> long-term prospects for the project?
[09:08] <blindcoder> quite nice
[09:08] <blindcoder> several people here use ROCK for commercial projects
[09:08] <Lucifer_arma> reasons?  sorry for the abruptness of the questions...
[09:09] <blindcoder> also, I am using it for a little distribution of mine and a customised livecd at work
[09:09] <Lucifer_arma> that's the lvn cd, isn't it?
[09:10] <blindcoder> lvp cd, yes
[09:10] <blindcoder> and then a non-open target at my employer
[09:11] <Lucifer_arma> aha.  So there's a couple of implied criticisms at rock that I saw on the t2 site.  (this is starting to read like an interview, heh)
[09:12] <Lucifer_arma> how open is rock to patches and new developers?  I was told (by you?) yesterday to submit patches to submaster, and then saw on the mailing list that there are apparently some issues with submaster.
[09:12] <blindcoder> yes, it isn't feature complete now as was discussed
[09:12] <blindcoder> which directly leads back to the lead developer lacking internet connection
[09:12] <Lucifer_arma> I didn't read the whole discussion, I must admit
[09:13] <Lucifer_arma> how many people have commit access?  exact number not needed, but I don't know how else to answer that without an exact number :)
[09:14] <blindcoder> three
[09:14] <blindcoder> four, actually
[09:14] <blindcoder> three to commit 'normal' patches, and one to speed-commit (circumventing submaster) security patches
[09:15] <Lucifer_arma> wow.  that's not much, is it?
[09:15] <blindcoder> that's about half (a bit less) than the numebr of active, permanent rock devs
[09:15] <blindcoder> one feature of submaster that is still missing is auto-application of patches
[09:16] <Lucifer_arma> why such a small number of folks with commit access?
[09:16] <blindcoder> so if I commit an update to wesnoth, which isn't an 'important' package, that patch will  be applied directly without waiting in submaster
[09:16] <blindcoder> it's been this way when I arrived at the project. back then, only the lead developer had commit access
[09:16] <blindcoder> I'm not sure about the reasons
[09:16] <blindcoder> you might ask th. he could know
[09:17] <Lucifer_arma> the lead developer is the guy without internet access right now, right?
[09:18] <blindcoder> correct
[09:18] <blindcoder> clifford
[09:20] <Lucifer_arma> man, I hate it when projects fork.  Then I've gotta try to figure out who was right because the best decision I can make for myself depends on that.  :(
[09:20] <Lucifer_arma> I guess this fork happened long enough ago that it doesn't matter, and technical merits aren't as important to me as community merits
[09:20] <blindcoder> heh
[09:20] <blindcoder> It happened in the summer of 2004
[09:22] <Lucifer_arma> only 3 people with commit access might be a showstopper for me, sorry.  I won't know for a little bit yet, have more stuff to check out, and you guys certainly shouldn't take it as a slight or anything if it works out that way.
[09:23] <Lucifer_arma> any idea what the primary reason for the fork was?  Were you here back then?
[09:24] <blindcoder> I was on the project back then, but I happened to be on a move to Berlin then
[09:24] <blindcoder> so when i got my internet connection back I saw the fork
[09:34] <Lucifer_arma> so I've got another little wrench to toss in there
[09:34] <Lucifer_arma> awhile back I did some freelance writing with newsforge as my main customer.
[09:34] <Lucifer_arma> A little while ago I shot off an email to the editors there to see if they're interested in an in-depth review of ROCK
[09:35] <Lucifer_arma> if they bite, I'll write the article, of course.  :)  If not, I intend to shop it and see if I can get a buyer.  I don't do freelance writing much anymore, it's possible my old contacts have dried up.
[09:36] <Lucifer_arma> the possibility of doing t2 as a second article and getting paid twice for essentially the same work is quite attractive.  :)  If they bite on the first one, that is...
[09:36] <Lucifer_arma> I guess that's just information, don't want to hold anything back.  If they bite and I have criticisms that might be considered scathing, I don't want you guys to feel like I fucked around with you, that's all.
[09:37] <Lucifer_arma> in any case, if I find a buyer, I have to address the fork in the article somehow, to give readers information they need.
[09:38] <blindcoder> sure
[10:10] <Lucifer_arma> ok, I just joined the developer's list.  Had been putting it off, I must admit, to see if I was going to use the thing.
[10:14] <daja77_> btw there are 4 ppl with commit rights ;)
[10:16] <blindcoder> daja77_: 09:10 < blindcoder> four, actually
[10:17] <Lucifer_arma> s/3/4/
[10:17] <daja77_> :)
[10:18] Action: Lucifer_arma gets corrected all the time :)
[10:19] <th> morning
[10:19] <Lucifer_arma> today is Towel Day, btw
[10:19] <blindcoder> moin th
[10:19] <th> really?
[10:20] <Lucifer_arma> yep.  so carry your towel with you.
[10:20] <th> cool. well. dont panic.
[10:20] <Lucifer_arma> http://www.towelday.kojv.net/
[10:20] <th> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Towel_day
[10:22] <esden> nice ... Ok it is good that I took the towel with me yesterday ... so I can carry it today in a prominent position
[10:22] <esden> and ... good morning everyone
[10:23] <blindcoder> moin esden 
[10:26] <Lucifer_arma> so, if the floodgates on svn commit access were opened up, how many people do you guys think would wind up?  Is the number about 10, 15, 20, what?  :)
[10:26] Action: Lucifer_arma wonders how many have cvs access on armagetronad
[10:26] <th> personally i see committing to submaster like committing to a development/testing branch
[10:27] <th> and we DID have such a svn tree. personally hosted by blindcoder.
[10:27] <blindcoder> which got burned down again on the promise of submaster auto-commit
[10:27] <th> it was seized after the last CLT. because it was considered no longer needed
[10:28] <Lucifer_arma> CLT?
[10:28] <th> blindcoder: no. it was not because of the that promise.
[10:28] <th> blindcoder: i think it was you seeing that it was no longer needed with the CURRENT situation
[10:29] <Lucifer_arma> whoah, I wasn't trying to start a fight...  heh.
[10:29] <Lucifer_arma> I guess submaster is supposed to functionally replace lots of developers with commit access?
[10:29] <th> Lucifer_arma: yes. i think so.
[10:29] <Lucifer_arma> ok, why?
[10:30] <th> because clifford wanted to have total control over what happenes in the tree.
[10:30] <th> s/nes/ns/
[10:30] <Lucifer_arma> I know he's not here to speak for himself, do you know if he still feels that way?
[10:31] <th> he still wants this sort of control to the tree. so access is limited - and patches shall only be possible through sm
[10:31] <th> i think he wrote a paper on the submaster idea
[10:33] <th> i found something http://www.nluug.nl/events/sane2004/abstracts/ab.html?id=141
[10:33] <Lucifer_arma> this sounds like ego to me.  (no response needed, not trying to cause trouble)
[10:34] <Lucifer_arma> hmmmm..  darcs  :)
[10:35] <th> ego was infact the reason for the t2 fork. IMHO
[10:36] <Lucifer_arma> well, ego is a part of every fork, isn't it?
[10:37] <th> no
[10:37] <th> i dont think so
[10:37] <th> it might be rational by technical reasons
[10:37] <Lucifer_arma> oh sure, a difference in how to proceed into the future, fork and see which one winds up better, then everyone gets back together behind that one
[10:38] <th> even permanent forks
[10:38] <Lucifer_arma> armagetron was forked because the original developer disappeared off the scene
[10:38] <Lucifer_arma> when he reappeared, he had three choices.  Quit worrying about it and do nothing, continue work on the original project, or join the fork.
[10:38] <Lucifer_arma> He joined the fork.
[10:39] <Lucifer_arma> so scm now shows a fork, but there really isn't one anymore :)
[10:39] <th> what's with fluxbox/blackbox?
[11:07] <Lucifer_arma> I guess the thing with commit access is that I want to know if I get involved with a project that I will be trusted to code to a common vision while executing my own personal goals,
[11:07] <Lucifer_arma> and that that trust means I can commit directly to the trunk.
[11:07] <Lucifer_arma> the mechanism that allows that is not important, and I'm confident that if I'm around long enough I can establish that trust, if it's available
[11:08] <th> well. submaster is open from the beginning
[11:08] <Lucifer_arma> and if I use ROCk, I'm going to write a graphical installer and it'll be in python.  :)
[11:08] <th> personally i love python ;)
[11:08] <th> pyqt?
[11:08] <Lucifer_arma> right, but if everything I do must always pass scrutiny before being accepted, and nothing can ever change that, I'm not interested.
[11:09] <th> yea i see
[11:09] <Lucifer_arma> pyqt more than likely, pygame maybe, I like pygame.
[11:09] <Lucifer_arma> I also like pyqt.  :)
[11:10] <Lucifer_arma> so it's your basic micro-management thing.  I've been around a bit, like I keep saying, and I'm not interested in joining a cathedral.
[11:10] <Lucifer_arma> so is rock a cathedral, or a bazaar?  ;)
[11:10] <th> neither of the two
[11:10] <th> it's way smaller than both.
[11:10] <Lucifer_arma> I'm not familiar with a third option, explain.  :)
[11:12] <th> our user/developer base is just too small to talk about a cathedral or a bazaar.
[11:12] <Lucifer_arma> sure about that?
[11:12] <th> yes.
[11:12] Action: Lucifer_arma wonders if armagetron is bigger or smaller than rock
[11:17] <Lucifer_arma> basically the areas I'm looking at working on are graphical installer and package management.  I consider it a good thing that package management is still fairly immature compared to, say, rpm or deb,
[11:18] <Lucifer_arma> because that means it doesn't suck like rpm and deb, and maybe I can write code that'll make it better.
[11:23] <Lucifer_arma> whos' this ragnar fellow?  He's in both this channel and the t2 channel
[11:37] Nick change: Lucifer_arma -> LuciKillsdistros
[11:38] Nick change: LuciKillsdistros -> LuciKillsDistros
[11:38] Nick change: LuciKillsDistros -> LuciEatsDistros
[11:38] Nick change: LuciEatsDistros -> Lucifer_arma
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[16:54] <fake> moin
[16:56] <blindcoder> moin fake 
[16:56] <fake> blindcoder: another stupid irssi question, how do i close query windows?
[16:56] <fake>  /close doesn't work ;)
[16:57] <blindcoder> /wc
[16:57] <fake> ah, for window-close
[16:57] <fake> ?
[16:57] <blindcoder> /window close
[16:57] <fake> nice
[16:57] <fake> thanks!
[16:57] <blindcoder> /wc is an alias to /window close
[16:58] <blindcoder> fake: do you happen to know when clifford will be back?
[16:59] <fake> it'll be a while
[17:01] <blindcoder> doesn't he love us anymore? *cry*
[17:02] <fake> that i don't know.
[17:02] <fake> we should torture the truth out of him!
[17:03] Action: fake saw the last episode of 24 season 5 yesterday
[17:03] <blindcoder> well, that'll be your job, seeing as you are the one closest to him geographically
[17:04] <blindcoder> haven't seen a sigle one yet
[17:04] <fake> well, i would be at a bbq at his house right now, celebrating his birthday, but he canceled it last-minute
[17:04] <blindcoder> all I've seen this week is the ceiling of my sleeping room
[17:05] <fake> blindcoder: why? sick?
[17:05] <fake> blindcoder: 2 broken leges?
[17:05] <fake> -e
[17:06] <blindcoder> fake: yeah, got a fever on saturday and still haven't fully recovered
[17:09] <fake> blindcoder: a fever caused by what?
[17:10] <blindcoder> fake: I blame Poland
[17:11] <blindcoder> fake: friend of mine who was in Poland for two weeks came over
[17:11] <blindcoder> fake: an hour after he left I got a fever
[17:11] <blindcoder> fake: so I blame Poland.
[17:27] <fake> blindcoder: which is always a viable option.
[17:27] <fake> blindcoder: this friend you are talking about doesn't happen to be esden?
[17:27] <blindcoder> no
[17:28] <blindcoder> fake: had it been esden, I'd have blamed him directly :)
[17:42] Action: fake going home, cya
[17:42] <daja77_> cu
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[00:00] --- Fri May 26 2006