[00:03] <esden> stf^rocklinux: hehe ... yes that is a good question ;)
[00:04] <stf^rocklinux> esden: I bet if anyone can find the answer, it's www.userfriendly.org
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[00:47] <esden> stf^rocklinux: yes
[00:48] <esden> stf^rocklinux: ok ... good night ... clisp seems to build here on pallas .... now I "only" have to convert what I did to compile it in a clisp.conf file :/
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[07:05] <blindcoder> moin
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[09:49] <esden> moin
[09:49] <daja77> moin esden
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[09:54] Action: esden has a question .. is there a description of the variables and functions avalable and usable in *.conf files?
[09:55] <daja77> yep
[09:55] <esden> daja77: the code? ;)
[09:55] <esden> daja77: the code is the documentation? ;)
[09:55] <daja77> no this is even in Documentation/Developers ..
[09:56] <esden> daja77: nice
[09:56] <daja77> .oO (and why I have to tell *you* that)
[09:56] <th> because he is a slacker ;-)
[09:56] <daja77> hi th :)
[09:57] <th> hi daja77 what was the thing because of which i shall hate you?
[09:57] <daja77> the freetype update ..
[09:57] <th> ahh the mail which is still in my todo-inbox ok
[09:57] <daja77> probably breaks some packages
[09:57] <th> security?
[09:57] <daja77> yes
[09:58] <th> ahh read the mail. ok.
[09:58] <esden> daja77: because I forgot all that stuff
[09:58] <th> unfortunately i do have the time/power for builds but not for in depth testing
[09:58] <th> so i relay on you guys here to test my isos
[09:58] <esden> daja77: and because I had never in my whole rock career added a package with such a strange build process like clisp ...
[09:58] <esden> daja77: sbcl will be even more funny
[09:58] <th> and i apply on your decision which must obey our "guidelines / rules"
[09:58] <daja77> not? you had dietlibc ..
[09:59] <daja77> yeah i need some more diskspace for the iso testing
[09:59] <esden> daja77: that is something a lot different ... and the basics were made by clifford
[09:59] <daja77> ic 
[10:00] <esden> daja77: as I started this stuff ... before I was able to find out how to do that dietlibc stuff clifford already implemented that
[10:00] <esden> daja77: that was pretty awkward
[10:00] <daja77> hehe
[10:01] <daja77> have to go now
[10:01] <esden> cu daja77 
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[10:09] <blindcoder> re
[11:49] <stf^rocklinux> moin
[11:53] Nick change: ija_ -> ija
[12:37] <blindcoder> moin stf^rocklinux 
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[13:47] <esden> *sigh* Build-Pkg takes ages to initialize before it gets to the really interesting stuff ...
[13:47] Action: esden not complaining ... my sanity is more importaint ;)
[13:48] <blindcoder> it only does that once
[13:48] <blindcoder> until you change something again, that is
[13:49] <esden> blindcoder: sure ... but I have to change the .conf file that influences only the build process and not the initialization ... but it is still initialzing every time ... 
[13:50] <esden> there should be a shell script compiler ... perhups then rock would work at a reasonable speed ...
[13:53] <blindcoder> esden: grats, you just got yourself an assignment :)
[13:54] Action: esden slowly believes that there may be a reason why every other build system is not written in shellscript ;)
[13:54] <esden> blindcoder: yes rewriting rocklinux in common lisp *GG*
[13:54] <blindcoder> esden: how many other build systems have you seen?
[13:56] <esden> several ... but I was totally wrong
[13:56] <esden> darwin ports seems to be written in shellscript 
[13:56] <esden> too
[13:57] <esden> but I never had the feeling it being slow
[13:57] <esden> strange
[13:59] <blindcoder> well, there are several approaches you can take
[14:01] <blindcoder> the main problem is that the final config script has grown to considerable ize
[14:01] <blindcoder> size
[14:05] <blindcoder> it's 300 kB pure shell script
[14:05] <blindcoder> with loops, filesystem interaction and all that stuff
[14:05] <blindcoder> lots of fun
[14:14] <esden> yes ...
[14:14] <esden> really a lot of fun ... :/
[14:14] <esden> very questionable kind of fun
[14:16] <blindcoder> noone sat down to think a new layout through yet
[14:16] <blindcoder> though it's agreed that it needs to be sped up
[14:17] <esden> blindcoder: sure ... redesigning the concept is not trivial
[14:17] <blindcoder> how that can be done, though, and where the real roadblock actually lies, that's not certain yet
[14:18] <blindcoder> exactly
[14:20] <esden> I think that even though rocklinux has a lot of power it would probably be not such a bad idea to rething the complete concept of it ... but I am currently not so deep in the system so I can see the whole picture
[14:20] <esden> I mean not the concept of what it does
[14:20] <esden> but how it is done
[14:20] <esden> because the concept of what it does is still brilliant
[14:25] <blindcoder> I'm really against the whole rewrite from scratch thing, as well as the change the language in use thing
[14:25] <blindcoder> there _are_ people using ROCK without publicly announcing it
[14:25] <blindcoder> if we now change from shellscript to - say - LUA and C, taht would really be a Bad idea, and that's Bad with a capital B
[14:28] <esden> blindcoder: ok ... perhups changing the language is not a good idea ... and also I think that rewriting from scratch is really bad idea ... but speeding the rhino up should really be a priority
[14:29] <esden> the time used by the build system should not be significant and visible ... at least that is my opinion
[14:29] <blindcoder> esden: compared to the compiling it is insignificant :-)
[14:30] <blindcoder> still, the Config dialog needs to be sped up
[14:32] <esden> blindcoder: yes but only when you compile the whole thing .. but at least I do that less often then using Emerge-Pkg or Bulid-Pkg ... and yes Config should be sped up too
[14:33] <esden> blindcoder: and when you add a package you have to test it ... I really do not think that setting a hardware requirement on the technological bleeding edge to add packages conviniently is such a good idea ;)
[14:34] <blindcoder> esden: most packages should only need a .desc file anyway, so it's a one-shot thing after all
[14:34] <blindcoder> esden: one thing that _is_ possible to do is to check if the changed files are actually necessary for configuration
[14:34] <blindcoder> esden: which is a can of worms all by itself
[14:38] <esden> blindcoder: at least due to the long wait times I can do something else while waiting for Build-Pkg to finish with an error ... :/
[14:57] <esden> aaahaaa ... clisp scheint zu compileren ... nett
[14:58] <esden> ich bin bissel naeher an sbcl ... 
[15:00] <blindcoder> hehe
[15:04] <esden> the dumbest thing is that sbcl is not able to bootstrap itself using gcc ... you need another implementation of common lisp to bootstrap it
[15:05] <esden> so I chose to add clisp package so that I can have sbcl ... 
[15:05] <esden> somehow that is insane
[15:06] <blindcoder> well, you need a C compiler to compile gcc :)
[15:07] <th> what do you need to compile a turing-machine simulator?
[15:08] <esden> blindcoder: right ... makes sense
[15:09] <esden> th: can you reformulate your question so that I do understand it? ;)
[15:14] <esden> th: if I understand you correctly the turing machine simulators I know are not written in brainfuck ;)
[15:15] <blindcoder> hmm, okay, I'm missing 8 source files for LVP
[15:16] <blindcoder> I sholud be able to somehow get all but one or two of them
[15:18] <blindcoder> okay, just got them from the author
[15:19] <esden> fsck is clisp producing tons of output during compile
[15:19] <blindcoder> now I'm only missing these:
[15:19] <blindcoder> 28 download/mirror/s/services-20040211.txt http://www.graffiti.com/services
[15:19] <blindcoder> 22 download/mirror/g/gcc34-fixes-v2.4.27.patch http://www.rocklinux.net/people/fake/linux24/gcc34-fixes-v2.4.27.patch
[15:19] <blindcoder> I've got the rest of them
[15:21] <esden> woot ... clisp compiled and installed ... nice...
[15:30] <blindcoder> guess that suffices to keep the FSF from suing my pants off
[15:36] <esden> blindcoder: erm ... why should they sue you?
[15:36] <blindcoder> esden: http://software.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=06/06/23/1728205
[15:36] <blindcoder> esden: http://blog.crash-override.net/index.php/142
[15:36] <esden> .oO(somehow seems sbcl to be much bigger then clisp)
[15:39] <esden> blindcoder: uh oh ... I understand
[15:40] <blindcoder> jupp
[15:40] <blindcoder> for ROCK this isn't a problem
[15:40] <blindcoder> since we have the mirror infrastructure
[15:40] <blindcoder> which - incidentally - means that we don't have to keep the sources around for 3 years
[15:41] <blindcoder> but since LVP only relies on the ROCK infrastructure (like MEPIS relied on the Debian/Ubuntu infrastructure) this could have become problematic
[15:41] <blindcoder> so I'm now only lacking the two files mentioned above
[15:42] <blindcoder> which aren't really problematic from my point of view
[15:42] <blindcoder> services isn't used in LVP
[15:42] <blindcoder> and the gcc34 fixes aren't either, since back then LVP didn't use gcc34
[15:44] <esden> blindcoder: humm ... I hope you are right
[15:44] <blindcoder> took me a few hours to hunt them all down, though
[15:44] <esden> blindcoder: do not wonder about somehow lower performance of pallas at the moment ... the sbcl compile drains a bit of power
[15:44] <blindcoder> esden: heh, so do I :/
[15:46] <blindcoder> sure, no problem
[15:46] <blindcoder> I regularly create performance spikes around 30-50 load :)
[15:46] <blindcoder> that's usually when the OOM-killer starts
[15:51] <esden> OOM-killer o_O?
[15:54] <blindcoder> jupp
[15:54] <blindcoder> little problems with irssi scripts :-)
[16:03] <esden> blindcoder: what should I write as a license in the .desc file of sbcl when it states on their homepage: "SBCL is derived from CMU CL, and carries the same licensing terms, a mixture of BSD-style (for a few subsystems) and public domain (for the rest of the system)."
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[16:06] <esden> anyone is free to answer my question ... it needs not to be specially blindcoder ;)
[16:06] <esden> hi kasc 
[16:06] <kasc> moin
[16:14] Nick change: esdentem_ -> esdentem
[16:18] <stf^rocklinux> esden: take a look at Documentation/Developers/REGISTER, and pick the license tag that fits best. (My guess is OpenSource...) Or add a new one.
[16:38] <esden> stf^rocklinux: yes I have chosen that one
[16:39] <esden> *sigh* ... I can not bootstrap sbcl with clisp ... clisp as crosscompile host is broken >_<
[16:40] <esden> I will have to add sbcl to a non changerooted stage where it bootstraps from an installed sbcl on the host machine ... and then use that one in the chrooted file system to bootstrap sbcl in 5th stage there
[16:40] <esden> what a mess
[16:55] <blindcoder> esden: OpenSource
[17:20] <esden> blindcoder: I thought there is a shellscript for installing packets by hand in rock ... this strange "pkg-install make install" or how it was called?
[17:20] <mnemoc> mkpkg
[17:21] <esden> ahh ... irght
[17:21] <blindcoder> esden: mkpkg
[17:21] <esden> thanks mnemoc 
[17:21] <esden> thanks blindcoder ;)
[17:21] <mnemoc> np :)
[17:21] <blindcoder> esden: http://www.rocklinux.org/wiki/Adding_Third_Party_Software_to_the_ROCK_Linux_Package_Management
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[17:36] <elon> o/~ moggen/.
[17:42] <esden> hi elon 
[17:43] <blindcoder> moin elon 
[18:01] <stf^rocklinux> hi elon! The changes you proposed on the Roadmap page are already in trunk, except insmod.old, which is still needed for creating Linux 2.4 based initrds.
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[18:14] <esden> argl
[18:15] <elon> stf^rocklinux: ok... tnx
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[19:55] <esden> humm ... I think that this patch adding clisp, sbcl and deps will be rejected in the form it is ... but somehow I am too lazy to see how it should be done propperly ... I simply made custmains for them ... :/
[19:55] <esden> it works at least for building the packages on a working system 
[19:56] <stf^rocklinux> esden: using custmain per se is fine...
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[20:02] <esden> stf^rocklinux: humm ... ok ... I will add checksums to the .desc files ... and when I am sure that sbcl finishes the compile correctly I will submit it to submaster
[20:03] <esden> you will decide if you want that ... and if not everyone is free to clean it up as apropriate
[20:06] <stf^rocklinux> as long as it doesn't interfere with other packages or somehow breaks the build system, I see no reason for voting against your patch to your personal repo ;)
[20:09] <esden> hehe .. that is fine with me ;)
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[00:00] --- Thu Jun 29 2006