[00:35] <owl> gn8
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[09:14] <blindcoder> moin
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[09:17] <blindcoder> stf^rock1inux: ping
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[11:21] <stf^rock1inux> blindcoder: pong
[11:26] <blindcoder> stf^rock1inux: what were those changes you made to the wiki?
[11:26] <blindcoder> stf^rock1inux: I couldn't make any sense out of them
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[11:27] <stf^rocklinux> moin
[11:27] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: pong
[11:27] <blindcoder> ah, yes,. moin.
[11:27] <blindcoder> where are my maners :(
[11:28] <blindcoder> 11:22 < blindcoder> stf^rock1inux: what were those changes you made to the wiki?
[11:28] <blindcoder> 11:22 < blindcoder> stf^rock1inux: I couldn't make any sense out of them
[11:28] <stf^rocklinux> there were some duplicate pages, like Changing The Package Selection and Changing the package selection
[11:28] <blindcoder> ah, so why did you delete the dup instead of redirect it?
[11:29] <stf^rocklinux> At least in the preview redirect does not work, so I just cleaned the duplicate pages
[11:29] <stf^rocklinux> for really deleting them I'd have to be an admin
[11:29] <blindcoder> ah, okay
[11:30] <blindcoder> yeah
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[14:13] <th> our udev rules skip important scsi devices
[14:14] <th> UEVENT[1157890068.217375] add@/block/sdc/sdc2
[14:14] <th> ACTION=add
[14:14] <th> DEVPATH=/block/sdc/sdc2
[14:14] <th> SUBSYSTEM=block
[14:14] <th> no node is created for this device
[14:14] <blindcoder> oops
[14:15] <blindcoder> th: btw, could you apply the 'apply me' journal?
[14:15] <blindcoder> th: I've tested it in a full build and vmware installation
[14:21] <th> i've major concerns with 2006082512411919808
[14:22] <blindcoder> oh, and you mention them now?
[14:22] <blindcoder> two weeks after the patch was submitted?
[14:23] <blindcoder> a month after it was put up on the roadmap?
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[14:27] <th> concerns have already been mentioned earlier in smng by SMP 
[14:27] <th> -       execle("/bin/bash", "-bash", "-l", "-c", command, NULL, clean_env);
[14:27] <th> +       execle("/bin/sh", "-l", "-c", command, NULL, clean_env);
[14:27] <th> there ist argv[0] missing
[14:28] <th> so -l is propably ignored by bash
[14:29] <th> which has no big impact besides the name will be wrong.
[14:29] <blindcoder> ah, yeah, SMPs overly helpful, objective and constructive concerns as we love them
[14:29] <th> because it still starts with "-"
[14:30] <th> as far as i can remember he only stated facts.
[14:30] <th> i could not see biased comments
[14:30] <blindcoder> well, you can say 'This stinks' and you can say 'This stinks. Make it that way.'
[14:31] <blindcoder> I rarely see the latter one from smp
[14:31] <th> and if your time is only enough for "it stinks"?
[14:31] <th> should shut up and not even complain?
[14:32] <blindcoder> then at least you should try not to be insulting
[14:32] <blindcoder> and the phrasing of smps complaints usually feel quite like that
[14:32] <th> i think there is even value in criticism that has no constructive advice.
[14:32] <blindcoder> well, fine, don't apply it then
[14:32] <blindcoder> I'll try to straighten that stuff out next week
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[14:35] <blindcoder> not that it'd be impossible to do a fine incremental patch later
[14:39] <th> perhaps we should spare this fine incremental patch. and use it on current udev
[14:39] <th> i get no /dev/sd* nodes for usb devices
[14:39] <th> that's pretty fatal
[14:39] <th> permissions/ownership in /dev/sounds/ is 660/root:root
[14:39] <th> that's pretty fatal
[14:44] <th> the first works better if i copy rules.d/* from udev source to /etc/rules.d/
[14:44] <th> so does the latter
[14:48] <blindcoder> then probably our rules are outdated
[14:48] <blindcoder> although on my latest build
[14:49] <blindcoder> dev/sound is root:sound 660
[14:49] <th> i'm talking of our last release
[14:50] <th> 14:45:09 < blindcoder> then probably our rules are outdated
[14:50] <blindcoder> well, that seems to be fixed already then :)
[14:50] <th> i'd put it in other words
[14:50] <th> udev got updated without taking care of the rules or testing
[14:51] <blindcoder> *nod*
[14:51] <th> so perhaps we should do a new release where users can use usb storage and hear sound.
[14:51] <th> i think that's two very big showstoppers
[14:52] <blindcoder> great idea. can you take care of it, please/
[14:52] <blindcoder> ?
[14:56] <SMP> I don't give that warm, understanding feedback that makes you feel loved even though you fucked up big time. but I don't insult people, either. my comment on that system.init patch only either states simple facts in an entirely neutral way or asks simple questions in cases when I did not immediately understand the intention of a dubious change.
[14:57] <th> heh
[14:57] <SMP> and, by the way, I do hope to get an answer on these questions, because I might as well have missed something or simply not know enough about the background of that patch
[14:57] <th> "that warm, understanding feedback that makes you feel loved"
[14:57] <th> good one
[14:58] <th> regarding the udev rules - i dont want to just copy something from udev-src and release it blindy. it should be inspected to find our mistake.
[14:58] <th> s/blindy/blindly/
[14:58] <SMP> . o O ( Freudian )
[15:02] <SMP> bbl
[15:07] <blindcoder> well, then do it
[15:08] <blindcoder> here I don't get that error
[15:08] <blindcoder> and I can't inspect errors that I don't get
[15:08] <blindcoder> and I don't mean getting as in understanding
[15:08] <blindcoder> SMP: well, then expect to be ignored by me if you don't like to give constructive critic
[15:16] <th> blindcoder: are you able to test it on ROCK3 release?
[15:19] <blindcoder> I'll grab a copy of the iso, give me an hour or two
[15:20] <th> no haste
[15:20] <blindcoder> oh, I still have a copy here
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[15:55] <blindcoder> th: ROCK 3 rev 7770 iso
[15:55] <th> yes
[15:55] <blindcoder> th: /dev/sound/* has root:sound 660
[15:56] <th> i did 3 installs
[15:56] <th> must be early-stage issue
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[15:59] <th> blindcoder: can you kill udev daemon, remove /dev/sound/, start udevd, run udevtrigger?
[16:02] <blindcoder> done. recreated with root:sound 660
[16:06] <th> really strange
[16:06] <th> whats your udev version?
[16:07] <blindcoder> 092 1
[16:08] <blindcoder> that's the official rock 3 crystal iso
[16:08] <th> yea
[16:08] <blindcoder> installation using defaults
[16:08] <th> same here
[16:08] <th> well
[16:08] <th> i extracted the gems
[16:08] <th> and ran cron and postinstall
[17:06] <th> so it's an issue in the booting process.
[17:11] <blindcoder> well, it boots fine here
[17:14] <blindcoder> just tried booting without initrd
[17:14] <blindcoder> still root:sound 660
[17:49] <th> blindcoder: so how does your udevd comes up in ROCK3 without initrd?
[17:50] <th> uhh /etc/initscript?
[17:51] <th> lets say i did not expect this.
[17:56] <blindcoder> you know, our initrd concept is not always as bad as that :)
[17:57] <th> that has nothing to do with the initrd concept.
[17:57] <th> it's just that /etc/initscript should do way less than it does ;)
[17:58] <blindcoder> and that's where the system.init split comes into play
[17:58] <blindcoder> since splitting system.init is just the first step in a long way of work
[17:59] <th> yes - i do know that.
[17:59] <th> and the split is needed
[18:01] <blindcoder> indeed
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[18:47] <stf^rock1inux> hi again
[18:47] <stf^rock1inux> I sent a mail answering SMP's questions on the init split patch on thursday, but it looks like it didn't get through... 
[18:50] <stf^rock1inux> I'll resend it now.
[18:56] <blindcoder> the harddisk on rl.org is full
[18:56] <blindcoder> the list is dead with that
[18:56] <blindcoder> clifford and daja are working on a new server
[19:03] <stf^rock1inux> ic... I wonder how I should answer SMP's question in the meantime.
[19:04] <stf^rock1inux> maybe send it to him privately first? 
[19:04] <stf^rock1inux> I don't want to post discussion in submaster...
[19:08] <th> stf^rock1inux: answer him in IRC perhaps?
[19:15] <SMP> stf^rock1inux: send mail to stefanp-exp-1158772249.8cf2bd@cabal1.com if you like -- I would apprechiate that
[19:19] <stf^rock1inux> SMP: ok
[19:23] <stf^rock1inux> th: that's an option, too. :)
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[00:00] --- Mon Sep 11 2006