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[06:42] <blindcoder> moin
[06:53] <blindcoder> ARGH!
[06:53] <blindcoder> bdb 4.5
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[11:14] <stf^rock1inux> moin
[11:55] <th> daja77: do you plan a openssh update soon?
[11:56] <daja77> should i?
[11:57] <mnemoc> 0.9.8d
[11:57] <daja77> ssh too?
[11:57] <mnemoc> CVE-2006-2937 CVE-2006-2940
[11:57] <daja77> this is ssl
[11:58] <mnemoc> oh,
[11:58] Action: mnemoc steps back
[11:59] <daja77> i committed that patch today ;)
[11:59] <mnemoc> :)
[12:01] <daja77> ok i should
[12:01] <daja77> th: is this a security thing or just a normal update?
[12:02] <th> security
[12:02] <daja77> hm they mention security fixes in the release notes
[12:02] <daja77> ok i'll do it
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[12:06] <netrunner> daja77: what is the openssl-daemon? 
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[12:06] <daja77> ?
[12:09] <netrunner> daja77: you wrote one should restart the daemon after the upgrade
[12:10] <daja77> sigh yeah i saw it
[12:10] <daja77> the template was the bind mail
[12:10] <daja77> >_<
[12:10] <netrunner> :)
[12:10] <netrunner> actually it is corrrect, you should restart all daemons that are using ssl
[12:13] <daja77> .oO (good to know that someone is actually reading that)
[12:17] <netrunner> :)
[12:41] <netrunner> daja77: you forgot to change the subject line :) you should use an empty template with FILLME tags :)
[12:44] <daja77> i am sleepy ..
[12:44] <daja77> but right i need a real template somewhere
[12:50] <stf^rocklinux> th: I tried your irfs yesterday. Works quite well :)
[12:51] <stf^rocklinux> th: I've also added rootdir support, so it can build initramfs for other architectures.
[12:51] <stf^rocklinux> th: maybe you want to add it as a ROCK package so I can start sending patches? :)
[12:51] <blindcoder> I guess we should finish started work first
[12:52] <blindcoder> like /etc/net
[12:52] <stf^rocklinux> ok, so what needs to be done for etcnet? An init script?
[12:53] <blindcoder> init script and a stone plugin
[12:53] <blindcoder> but it brings its own init script anyway
[12:53] <blindcoder> I guess we can use that
[12:53] <blindcoder> how is the etcnet package in pilots repository coming along?
[12:54] <stf^rocklinux> afaik it basically works (e.g. DHCP)
[12:54] <blindcoder> great
[12:54] <blindcoder> is it CORE flagged?
[12:55] <blindcoder> because the rocknet package isn't
[12:55] <stf^rocklinux> not yet
[12:55] <blindcoder> I see
[12:55] <stf^rocklinux> oh, and etcnet expects ifrename in /usr/sbin/ as a temporary workaround
[12:56] <blindcoder> hmm
[12:56] <stf^rocklinux> when you have ifrename in /sbin, you have to remove the workaround from the ROCK-specific config of etcnet
[12:56] <blindcoder> is Pilot going to make it arbitrary? or de we have to create a patch?
[12:57] <stf^rocklinux> etcnet-0.8.5/contrib/50-RockLinux-3:
[12:57] <stf^rocklinux> # Temp hack
[12:57] <stf^rocklinux> IFRENAME=/usr/sbin/ifrename
[12:57] <blindcoder> oh
[12:57] <blindcoder> so it's hacked to expect ifrename in /usr/sbin?
[12:57] <blindcoder> which means the wireless-tools package is wrong?
[12:58] <stf^rocklinux> yes, but there's a wireless-tools patch by now.
[12:58] <blindcoder> great :)
[12:59] <blindcoder> ah, I already have it in my journal
[13:02] <blindcoder> Installing fontconfig postinstall Script ...
[13:02] <blindcoder> cp: cannot stat `/ROCK/package/x11/fontconfig/x11-30-fontconfig-postinstall.sh': No such file or directory
[13:03] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: should the file be called x11-30-postinstall.sh or x11-30-fontconfig-postinstall.sh ?
[13:03] <blindcoder> I assume x11-30-fontconfig-postinstall.sh
[13:03] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: the latter. Did I get the name wrong? :/
[13:03] <blindcoder> yes :)
[13:03] <stf^rocklinux> how is the postinstall in fontconfig called?
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[13:04] <stf^rocklinux> I'll rediff the patch...
[13:05] <blindcoder> the actual filename is x11-30-postinstall.sh
[13:05] <blindcoder> the file it tries to install is x11-30-fontconfig-postinstall.sh
[13:05] <blindcoder> I now did a svn mv x11-30-postinstall.sh x11-30-fontconfig-postinstall.sh in my tree
[13:05] <stf^rocklinux> ok, I'll fix the patch
[13:08] <stf^rocklinux> blindcoder: 2006092913071523974
[13:10] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: that was not the patch I was talking about
[13:10] <blindcoder> err
[13:10] <blindcoder> yes
[13:10] <blindcoder> it was
[13:10] <blindcoder> blind, you know :)
[13:11] <stf^rocklinux> ^^
[13:18] <blindcoder> == 09/29/06 13:17:32 =[5]=> Finished building package fontconfig.
[13:30] <th> 12:51:19 < stf^rocklinux> th: maybe you want to add it as a ROCK package so I can start sending patches? :)
[13:30] <th> will do
[13:31] <th> stf^rocklinux: i can give you access to irfs on my personal svn if you like
[13:32] <blindcoder> th: already got a plugin infrastructure built up for it?
[13:44] <th> blindcoder: since the beginning
[13:44] <th> blindcoder: it is a build.d/ directory
[13:49] <blindcoder> so still not a full installable version?
[13:50] <blindcoder> as in /sbin/mkinitramfs /etc/initramfs and so on?
[13:52] <stf^rocklinux> th: I'll wait for the package for now
[13:56] <th> 13:49:24 < blindcoder> so still not a full installable version?
[13:56] <th> what you mean by that?
[13:57] <th> blindcoder: since the beginning it includes a mkinitramfs.sh script which should be installed to /sbin or something
[13:57] <th> blindcoder: "so still not a": it _never_ hat NO such script. did you ever look at it?
[14:10] <stf^rocklinux> th: the build.d location has to be changed, though
[14:10] <stf^rocklinux> for an installable package, I mean
[14:12] <th> stf^rocklinux: propably
[14:30] <blindcoder> that's exactly what I mean
[14:31] <blindcoder> when I looked at it I found no way it could be used outside of a directory structure like this:
[14:31] <blindcoder> /home/root/initramfs/mkinitramfs.sh
[14:31] <blindcoder> /home/root/initramfs/build.d/
[14:31] <blindcoder> etc
[14:31] <blindcoder> maybe I'll see it when there actually is a ROCK package for it
[14:34] <blindcoder> anyway, feierabend
[14:50] <th> blindcoder: so the very big issue is to move the build.d directory to another place when installing the package rockirfs?
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[15:31] <blindcoder> th: seems like it is
[15:31] <blindcoder> th: and maybe call it rockinitramfs or I'll always think of infrared stuff
[15:32] <blindcoder> th: I'll have a closer look when the rock package is there
[15:32] <blindcoder> th: and please write some documentation how to put plugins into it
[15:35] <th> blindcoder: of course the documentation exists since the beginning in build.d/README
[15:37] <blindcoder> so if everything has been there "since the beginning"
[15:37] <blindcoder> where's the ROCK package?
[15:41] <th> it does not exist. i wanted some rock-feedback first
[15:41] <th> stf's was the first today.
[15:41] <blindcoder> well, hard to get any when only saying 'it exists' on IRC every now and then
[15:42] <blindcoder> besides, I've been talking to SMP about the initrd-vs-initramfs thing
[15:42] <blindcoder> as I understood him, changing the mkfs call to the appropriate mkinitramfs call in the rockinitrd packgae would get us a nice initramfs, too
[15:48] <blindcoder> http://pallas.crash-override.net/~blindcoder/rocklinux_20060924.txt
[15:48] <blindcoder> search for initramfs
[15:48] <blindcoder> the third or fourth occurance should be it
[15:48] <blindcoder> 9:03 <SMP> no, initramfs is just a cpio. no /dev magic
[15:48] <blindcoder> 19:03 <SMP> no, initramfs is just a cpio. no /dev magic
[15:48] <blindcoder> starting there
[16:01] <th> blindcoder: i dont only say it exits - i always said where to get a tar to test it
[16:02] <th> blindcoder: where did smp say that replacing the call in rockinitrd would give a nice irf?
[16:04] <blindcoder> 19:13 <blindcod1r> so we'd still need the whole /etc/conf/initrd/initrd_* infrastructure, a custom /sbin/init for the initramfs and stuff?
[16:04] <blindcoder> 19:14 <SMP> the content is more or less the same as with an initrd
[16:04] <th> the content. yes. he says that the resulting content of what rockinitrd produces and what rockirfs produces is similar
[16:05] <th> blindcoder: where did smp say that replacing the call in rockinitrd would give a nice irf?
[16:05] <blindcoder> 19:13 <blindcod1r> so we'd still need the whole /etc/conf/initrd/initrd_* infrastructure, a custom /sbin/init for the initramfs and stuff?
[16:05] <blindcoder> 19:14 <SMP> the content is more or less the same as with an initrd
[16:07] <th> he is talking of the resulting content. not of anything which relates to "< blindcoder> as I understood him, changing the mkfs call to the appropriate mkinitramfs call in the rockinitrd packgae would get us a nice initramfs, too"
[16:07] <th> changing mkfs-call to mkinitramfs call is wrong. cause mkfs-call is part of rockinitrd as cpio-creating is part of mkinitrfs call.
[16:08] <th> and calling mkinitramfs call in rockinitrd is like calling rockinitrd in rockinitrd
[16:08] <blindcoder> "changing the mkfs call to the appropriate mkinitramfs call"
[16:08] <blindcoder> whatever it is that has to be called in mkinitramfs
[16:09] <th> okay - this might work somehow but is inefficient.
[16:10] <blindcoder> how so?
[16:11] <th> you are currently doing cp-a from prepared directory on a loopmounted newly created fs.
[16:11] <th> the difference is:
[16:11] <blindcoder> the loop-mount won't be necessary anymore, of course
[16:11] <th> the easy and suggested way to create a cpio is to just pipe a list of files to a gen_cpio program
[16:12] <th> the gen_cpio program creates the cpio file
[16:12] <th> no need for creating any filesystem
[16:12] <th> no need for doing any losetup
[16:12] <th> no need for root privs
[16:12] <blindcoder> of course not
[16:12] <th> no need for preparing a directory
[16:12] <blindcoder> well, you still need root privileges
[16:12] <blindcoder> or you won't get the stuff into /boot
[16:12] <blindcoder> I'd be worried about every user being able to manipulate my boot environment
[16:13] <th> the package creates the cpio - you need no privs for this creation
[16:13] <th> as you need no privs to build a kernel
[16:13] <th> of course if you want to install a kernel or a cpio to make your system boot... then you need privs
[16:13] <th> you would need no privs if your system is just a qemu or something
[16:13] <blindcoder> well, that's the point (usually)
[16:14] <blindcoder> so we should create a possibility to create the initramfs where it belongs with a single command
[16:14] <blindcoder> possibly check for userid in the mkinitramfs.sh script
[16:14] <blindcoder> then stuff the result where it belongs
[16:14] <blindcoder> so it would work like this if I understand you right:
[16:15] <blindcoder> cat /etc/conf/initrd/initrd_* | gen_cpio
[16:15] <blindcoder> with correct layout of the /etc/conf/initrd/initrd_* files?
[16:16] <th> blindcoder: yes.
[16:16] <th> blindcoder: the order of the files is importat
[16:16] <blindcoder> I see
[16:16] <blindcoder> why is the order important?
[16:16] <th> blindcoder: that's why there are numbers in the build.d/ dir
[16:17] <th> blindcoder: it's important because at extraction time a parent directory for a file must exist prior to it's (the files) extraction
[16:17] <blindcoder> sounds reasonable
[16:17] <th> it does. (since the beginning) ;-]
[16:18] <blindcoder> what if a directory/file is presented twice?
[16:18] <blindcoder> well, you never explained it to me like this. or I never got it.
[16:18] <th> then an error occurs at extraction time because the second file cant be extracted
[16:18] <blindcoder> I guess getting the order right won't be a problem
[16:19] <blindcoder> cat | sort | uniq | (shell magic that sorts all the directories at the beginning and the files at the end)
[16:19] <th> blindcoder: no - i just created a rockmkirfs package-pilot
[16:19] <th> blindcoder: everyone interested could inspect it. like SMP and stf did
[16:19] <blindcoder> I did have a look at it back then
[16:19] <blindcoder> I just didn't understand it
[16:20] <th> for x in build.d/[0-9][0-9]*
[16:20] <th> do
[16:20] <th>     echo
[16:20] <th>     . $x
[16:20] <th> done | sort -u
[16:20] <th> that's where your "cat | sort | uniq" is implemented
[16:20] <blindcoder> I wouldn't assume correctness of the files
[16:20] <blindcoder> but rather prepare for a few problems
[16:21] <blindcoder> let me just hack a shellscript up
[16:21] <th> "(shell magic that sorts all the directories at the beginning and the files at the end)" is not necessary when build.d/* contains numbers and correct order
[16:22] <blindcoder> exactly
[16:22] <blindcoder> never rely on correct order
[16:22] <blindcoder> there _will_ be people doing it wrong
[16:22] <th> blindcoder: hack away - but be aware that the infrastructure you're going to create already exists
[16:22] <blindcoder> and I really don't have the nerve to correct them again and again
[16:23] <blindcoder> so I'd rather have it work automatically
[16:23] <th> blindcoder: if you start to write "intelligent" software which helps dump people to fix some of their problems.. then you end up like "karl klammer"
[16:23] <th> i propose to not correct but fail.
[16:23] <blindcoder> well, ROCK is intelligent software, too
[16:23] <th> i propose to not correct but check and fail.
[16:23] <blindcoder> you could always do the work manually...
[16:23] <th> automation is no intelligence
[16:24] <th> intelligence comes in if software tries to guess user behaviour and fix it.
[16:24] <th> "the user propably meant it that way"
[16:24] <blindcoder> well, if a user adds a file to the list one can be fairly certain he wants it to work, too
[16:24] <blindcoder> and not have the extract mechanism fail
[16:25] <th> perhaps she added the directory prior to the file but had a typo in it... with your mechanism he would have two directories now. because the software's intelligence did miss that it was a typo and not a missing dir.
[16:27] <th> it would be user friendly to issue a warning "the parent directory for the following files is missing - prepare for extraction-error"
[16:27] <blindcoder> which wouldn't be fatal either
[16:28] <th> existence of directory might be fatal sometimes
[16:28] <blindcoder> or make it "the parent directory for the following files is missing - adding it automatically"
[16:29] <blindcoder> lack of directory _is_ fatal
[16:29] <th> that's only "verbose intelligence" which i still dont like because of the "intelligence" in it.
[16:30] <blindcoder> and I like it for it
[16:30] <blindcoder> it's not like it's getting in the way or something
[16:30] <th> blindcoder: imagine a user who creates a /foobar/ directory and a fooBar/file after it. now she will have /foobar and /fooBar/file. but she needed /foobar/file - this lack of existence will be fatal for her
[16:31] <th> but she will not notice
[16:31] <th> because extraction does not fail.
[16:31] <blindcoder> of course ,because the creation tells her
[16:31] <th> and perhaps this fatalness does not show up as visible as extraction-failure
[16:31] <stf^rocklinux> the order of files in mkinitramfs is always right, since the 'sort -u' part places dirs first in the list
[16:31] <blindcoder> and it'd be more dangerous if extraction - and thus boot - fails
[16:31] <th> stf^rocklinux: a dir might be missing - that's the discussion
[16:31] <blindcoder> stf^rocklinux: true, but only if the directory is explicitly mentioned
[16:32] <blindcoder> th: I'd be more worried if booting fails than if initramfs creation tells me how to fix it
[16:32] <th> blindcoder: i prefer a not running system to a wrongly running system when it comes to early-stage-problems.
[16:32] <blindcoder> because if the boot process fails (as opposed to extracting the initramfs) I can still do root=/bin/sh and do the steps manually
[16:33] <blindcoder> th: compromise
[16:33] <blindcoder> th: how about we make default behaviour fail on the extraction process
[16:33] <blindcoder> th: and create a -auto-dir parameter to create directories automagically?
[16:33] <blindcoder> so you have your behaviour and I can have mine
[16:34] <th> i've no objections regarding a --auto-dir option.
[16:34] <th> as long as it's not default
[16:34] <blindcoder> I just want to help people not fucking up their system as I have done more than once already
[16:34] <blindcoder> with a borked early-root filesystem
[16:35] <th> one can include a test-extraction in the unit which copies the cpio to /boot
[16:35] <blindcoder> that's a very good idea
[16:38] <blindcoder> http://scavenger.homeip.net/~blindcoder/dir_files.sh
[16:38] <blindcoder> just because it was already done now :)
[16:39] <blindcoder> the very first "sort -u" won't work, but that' meaningless
[16:42] <blindcoder> th: btw, how about a ROCK4-pre1 when /etc/net/ is integrated?
[16:42] <th> can we aim to fix the missing /dev/dsp issue?
[16:42] <th> is there some standard for /dev layour which we could obey?
[16:42] <th> s/layour/layout/
[16:43] <blindcoder> th: udev ships a few example configurations
[16:43] <blindcoder> sadly, /dev is just as standardised as network configuration :)
[16:43] <th> blindcoder: have you read about the syntax the list must have?
[16:44] <blindcoder> th: I remember something about [fcb] [major] [minor] <file>
[16:44] <th> blindcoder: see usage of gen_init_cpio.c which is part of kernel source.
[16:44] <stf^rocklinux> th: why not always create dirs automatically? Having to create them manually is an additional source of errors.
[16:44] <th> stf^rocklinux: no it is not.
[16:45] <blindcoder> ah, okay
[16:45] <th> stf^rocklinux: at least that's my opinion
[16:45] <th> stf^rocklinux: as stated above
[16:46] <th> stf^rocklinux: in any case you HAVE to offer creation of directories.
[16:46] <th> stf^rocklinux: to allow empty directories
[16:46] <stf^rocklinux> th: if I want a file /some/where on the initramfs, I have to add the dir, and the file to the correct dir, so I have to specify the dir twice
[16:46] <th> stf^rocklinux: and with what permissions will the auto-creation happen?
[16:46] <th> stf^rocklinux: how to specify that?
[16:46] <th> stf^rocklinux: which ownership?
[16:46] <blindcoder> hmm
[16:47] <blindcoder> I wasn't aware you need to supply uid/gid/mode
[16:47] <th> stf^rocklinux: yes - you are right about specifying it twice. because the file-spec contains the dir.
[16:47] <stf^rocklinux> th: that's a point, it would have to be some default value.
[16:47] <blindcoder> I never have files that are not root:root 0755/0644 on my initrd
[16:47] <th> blindcoder: that's the coolness of it. you would need privs for chown/chgrp - but dont need it this way
[16:47] <th> blindcoder: no tmp dir?
[16:48] <blindcoder> th: I don't see a use for this in standard 'set up the system to boot' mode
[16:48] <blindcoder> th: mounted by /sbin/init
[16:48] <th> blindcoder: well - of course you can do more than the "just boot". and people start to want this.
[16:49] <th> with encryption, raid, lvm
[16:49] <th> soon they want an interactive dialog for authtification for decryption of something
[16:49] <blindcoder> th: encryption, raid and lvm _all_ need root :)
[16:49] <th> blindcoder: yes in early stage we do have root
[16:50] <blindcoder> th: and only lvm needs to write to the filesystem, for reasons not yet known to me
[16:50] <th> blindcoder: it does not _need_ to write there in an early stage i think.
[16:50] <blindcoder> th: yes, I already thought about that dialog thing. Reading the GPG Key for decryption of the harddisk encryption key from a Cardreader :)
[16:51] <blindcoder> crypting crypto-keys with crypted crypto-keys :)
[16:51] <blindcoder> that'd probably make bruce schneier proud :)
[16:51] <th> bootup stage is not trivial much longer - so i think it is a good idea to offer modes.
[16:51] <blindcoder> yeah
[16:51] <blindcoder> th: anyway, I'd be very happy if we could stick to the interfaces currently provided by initrd as much as possible
[16:52] <blindcoder> as in
[16:52] <blindcoder> plugins are sourced by a bash
[16:52] <blindcoder> using ". /etc/conf/<plugins>"
[16:52] <blindcoder> that kind of thing
[16:54] <blindcoder> the current initrd's /sbin/init implementation does have some problems
[16:54] <blindcoder> but fixing those needs to wait for the new installer
[16:54] <blindcoder> which will greatly influence the way filesystems are mounted (/etc/fstab and stuff)
[16:55] <blindcoder> th: that's why I'd like to create a ROCK4-pre1 after /etc/net and /dev/dsp stuff
[16:55] <blindcoder> th: because once the new installer is started, stuff is going to break
[16:56] <th> i've no objections regarding "a ROCK4-pre1 after /etc/net and /dev/dsp stuff"
[16:56] <blindcoder> (OT: Isn't Roquefort a brand of cheese?)
[16:57] <blindcoder> th: and we should change the version name for this release then :)
[16:57] <blindcoder> th: because ROCK 3 still has TRUNK in it
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[19:57] <Pilot> hello
[20:01] <th> hi Pilot 
[20:05] <daja77> these damn telecom suckers
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[00:00] --- Sat Sep 30 2006